When the purchasing power of currency goes down, the people with the most currency actually lose the most, meaning the rich. In this way, there is a flattening effect. In cases of hyperinflation, having 3 million dollars is scarcely better than having 300, and money is revealed to be the apparition that it actually has been all along. The negative impacts of being unable to purchase basic goods and services also acutely affect the working class, but in a lot of cases that's already true in a "healthy" economy.
This is the reason the bourgeoisie is always pulling their hair out about it. It's also only ever used as a pretense to do austerity and extract even more wealth from the working class while cutting basic services.
Since value comes from labor instead of markets or scarcity, inflation also literally wouldn't effect our standard of living in a meaningful way at all if we set in place robust mutual aid networks and centers and divide the labor in a more just way.
When the narratives of capitalist realism and market necessity start to erode, this is actually a good thing, and this is the case with inflation as long as we are organized and prepared to exist beyond the market.
There are way way way way way way way way way way more poor people to be affected by inflation than rich mfers wtf
Yes, but the way that we would be affected is good. I have 30 bucks to my name and thousands in debt. I'm happy to lose the 30 and steal or grow all my food (wouldn't be the first time) if it means the bourg has no functioning myth to brainwash all my peers into socially reproducing our immiseration, and occupation and expropriation become norms.
Not really. Hyperinflation was used as a tool by the west against Zimbabwe for example, and definitely effected the working class way more than the wealthy elites.
This. If you own capital is doesn't matter what the currency is "worth"; you still own the capital.
Yeah Robert Mugabe thought the same thing as OP and the west used it against him and the country kind of collapsed. Millions of Zimbabweans now work in South Africa in basically any job they can find in order to feed themselves and their families. I know quite a few, their stories are very sad to say the least. People with engineering degrees working as gardeners for minimum wage.
Exactly. See Zimbabwe as an example of how inflation will ruin the working class. I know so many Zimbabweans here in South Africa that work here now because the economy is destroyed by inflation.
Now explain to me why someone who has no money should give a fuck what it is worth
It's not. Things would unironically be better if participating in a system that exploits us became untenable, and if expropriation, land occupation, and doing the work without concerns for the market were the norm. Or do you think price signals tell us how much food we should produce too?
i fucking hate this website
WE BUY FOOD
IT'S MORE EXPENSIVE
WE CAN AFFORD LESS FOOD
WE NO LONGER CAN EAT
JESUS
FUCKING
CHRIST
Many people don't buy food, both historically and in the present. Especially on a site with a primary userbase of folks from "the breadbasket of the world" makes this feel a little disingenuous. If the economy collapsed tomorrow, I guarantee you fewer people would be starving (which BTW in happening at scale right fucking now) here. I'd be much happier that cops have no budget and happily do all the things I would never do for fear of repression.
i am talkinjg from personal experience you overprivileged fuck
fuck this shit, i'm out
I literally have only eaten ramen in a week and I'm on food stamps
If the economy collapsed tomorrow, I guarantee you fewer people would be starving
Can you give an example of even one time this has been true historically
Inflation of currency means nothing to someone who owns the means of production. You can't inflate away assets.
Yes, "wealth" is measured in currency, but it is definitely not currency. Technically if Jeffy B. liquidated everything down to $100b in USD cash it would be a significant change to his class character.
This is wrong. Bonds and stocks (the most popular assets, I guess besides real estate) are absolutely affected by inflation. They are actually some of the products most severely hit by high inflation. If you have a bond with a 10% annual return, inflation is going eat that first before you actually receive “real income”. 2% inflation in this case means a 8% annual return, but 12% inflation means the bond holder is literally losing money at -2% annually. You can see why banks would be very worried about high inflation because of this.
Someone making 6 figures losing 20% of their purchasing power is going to notice it a lot less than the vast majority of people who are just able to afford what they need. And billionaires won't notice it at all, because their wealth far exceeds everything that they might ever want to purchase.
Hyperinflation isn't coming. Corporations and the Fed have too much control over the economy to allow that to happen. So the ruling class won't notice anything, the middle class will have to tighten their belts, and the working class will starve.
But, while I don't see inflation as a force for equalizing society (I already made that mistake with the coronavirus), I do see an upcoming conflict where Capital refuses to correct the imbalance by increasing worker pay because it cannot accept the resulting loss of revenue. If it does anything, inflation might loosen the grip that Capitalism has over people's hearts and minds.
It's not really that inflation is an equalizing force, but rather that it forces a reckoning with the socioeconomic power dynamics inherent to the money system.
Additionally, no regulatory power or dude in a suit has the ability to force price controls without the tacit permission of labor.
What inflation does best is make the lack of credibility due the charlatan neoliberal prognosticators plain to see. It creates a crisis of confidence in the system at a level the majority of people cannot choose to ignore.
Finally, and I hinted at this earlier, if we take the labor theory of value seriously as we should, prices do not effect real value literally at all. The barrier to having basic needs met isn't the fabricated, ad-hoc scrawlings of self-styled technocrats, but rather the lack of community, will, and organization requisite to stop asking our bosses and landlords permission to take care of each other by any means necessary.
is the case with inflation as long as we are organized and prepared to exist beyond the market
we're not though. a lot of thing wouldnt be so bad if we had the power and architecture to weather it.
but we dont and inflation is a tool of labor discipline right now, not something undermining capital at large
Me when I'm struggling to pay for groceries: at least the rich are suffering more than I
No, that isn't it at all. Or do you intend to throw up your hands and give up with the market when (because it's when, not if) it fails?
At any point I can nick a bag of vital wheat gluten from the food orchard (grocery store, the only place where food exists).
When it is empty, it's a 5 mile ride to the farmland. I grew up there. It's trivial to walk away with large sacks of food with only a little geographic and seasonal knowledge. Beyond that, it's literally possible to forage.
You ever try the washed flour method instead of the pure wheat gluten? You can use the leftover starch water for noodles if you have a steamer
You can also make a bacon from the starch water if you get the ratio of starch to water right :tofu-cool:
stocks and bonds (the most popular assets by far) are severely affected by inflation actually. If you have a bond with a 10% annual return, inflation is going eat that first before you actually receive "real income". 2% inflation in this case means a 8% annual return, but 12% inflation means the bond holder is literally losing money at -2% annually. You can see why banks would be very worried about high inflation because of this.
That's weird. Why are they so incredibly worried about it then? 😘
And the economy imploding is good. How many empty houses are there for each unhoused person again?
Also working class people by and large live paycheck to paycheck.
The economy imploding is only good if we are ready for it.
I'd be happy to talk about my efforts to get ready for collective response in the event of a crash, in private. I am a couple months away from reaching a benchmark in this. PM me if you wanna talk about putting a life together outside the market, I've been in contact with many people who have a similar disposition about collapse.
Because they're dumbass neolibs, still traumatized by the 1970s who somehow think inflation is only the result of wage-price spirals and couldn't possibly be caused by supply side price gouging and rent seeking opportunism after demand began to pick up post lockdown
The bourgeoisie have their capital in various assets, that are not going to be inflated away, while the workers' savings are in currency. The main reason, why capitalists hate inflation is that inflation breaks the debt system.
The main reason, why capitalists hate inflation is that inflation breaks the debt system.
Which is a good thing
Also,
workers’ savings
:capitalist-laugh:
Non-currency assets are less prone to capital flight and more vulnerable to expropriation by workers, especially productive assets or the means to produce. Furthermore, how will you do a capital flight if your currency isn't worth the paper it is printed on?
The ratio isn't quite so high without my replying to all the responses
Also if you have any sort of debt (most people) you should absolutely be pro-inflation. You literally make money off of it because your debt literally shrinks. Bankers (capitalists) hate inflation for this reason and they use their propaganda machine to try to muddy the waters.
Like Lenin said: "The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation"
if you are anti-inflation you are literally doing the capitalists' job for them. Inflation isn't just prices going up, money is literally becoming less valuable per dollar, both on the price side and the wage side. Inflation hurts people with a lot of money more than it does people will very little money, it's literally progressive in that sense. If you can't afford food, it's because you are being underpaid by capitalist parasites not because of inflation.
are you fucking high?
"Yes, i should be pro my own starvation because the capitalists are mildly inconvenienced"
The 'inflation is good' stance around here drives me bananas. Like yeah, bread and gasoline and entertainment is now WAY more expensive and my wages haven't gone up but, conceptually, some investment banker is sweating because his APY% changed slightly. I've heard that rent is 21% more expensive since the pandemic -- it frustrates me to hear people talk about inflation like it's a good thing that benefits me.
this site is mostly privileged college kids, they don't give a shit about the poor
Or they've never seen or lived through the impacts that toying with inflation can cause to an underdeveloped/overexpoilted economy, like a lot of economies in the global south.
Revolution? A militant working class?
Weird how many of the worst cases of inflation in history happened just after a socialist state liberalized.
Don't be too hard on them plz, they're interpreting the inflation panic as an attack on wage increases and stimulus spending, both things millinienals are rightfully sensitive about defending
And with the media insidiously presenting covid inflation as a wage-price spiral that literally doesn't exist, it's all adding to the confusion concerning price hikes
i refuse to coddle the profound ignorance of the privileged when i literally spell out exactly what the problem is and they ignore it
again it's not the fault of inflation that you are poor, it is the fault of capitalists not paying you enough for the value of your labor. "Inflation control" is often used by the Federal Reserve, US Empire, and the IMF to justify their imperialism around the world. High inflation creates instability and wrecks capitalist profit generation, as a communist revolutionary you should support both of those things happening and fight for higher pay in the meantime
how the fuck do you not understand this?
food costs more, therefore i can afford to eat less
no I understand your situation. Food costs more money because money is worth less now. Yet your labor should also cost more money for the same reason. Of course it's the USA so capitalists won't raise wages unless they are literally forced to, but that is their fault. It fucking sucks I'm sorry you're in that situation but blaming inflation for the problem excuses the capitalists.
Inflation is just the price of money and that price is kept artificially high by a variety of capitalist institutions because capitalists hold the more money than anyone else. A socialist state could use higher inflation rates in some very positive ways that would benefit workers the most.
jesus fucking christ, it's like talking to a fucking condescending wall
thanks. I'm not going to argue with people about their real material conditions like hunger, but the effects of inflation are literally basic economics and are already well known. Inflation hurts economic growth, and capitalists rely on increasing economic growth to survive. If you want to attack the capitalist financial system that dominates and enslaves the world, high inflation is like a stake to the heart of that beast because it directly reduces returns across the board. Yeah sure the capitalists are so rich they will never have to worry about starving, but it's not like poor people weren't starving in America before inflation went up. Declining material conditions cause destabilization and precipitate revolution, which you should be interested in as a communist anyway.
Prices go up
Wage doesn't go up
I can afford less
How the fuck do you not understand that, just cause you managed to get a pay bump doesnt mean everyone else is
Rich people own a lot of assets, but I think they also own "a lot of money", as otherwise, who owns all of the money out there?
I find it hard to believe, do you have a good source?
S&P 500 companies have ~$2.7 trillion in just cash. According to the IMF itself, the amount of money stashed in tax havens was ~$36 trillion in 2016. That by itself is most definitely more than the emergency savings of the entire world's working class. Also, around 50% americans have more credit card debt than emergency savings.
any cash and/or savings they have is still a financial asset, and, as was said, is vulnerable to inflation unlike real assets
Those hoarded real assets, or at least the claim on them as private property, aren't going to last very long without a functioning market. Will you pay the cops to guard your vault with holo charizards? Useless hunks of metal? Bags of flour?
No, if you look through the comments, this is an Orthodox Leninist position
That's a lot of words and conjecture you attributed to me. The line going down doesn't cause suffering. The violent enforcement of property is doing that. The line is a smokescreen, and y'all bought it hook line and sinker. Either way, I have COVID and just got out of a really long editorial meeting for a zine. I don't have the energy to continue this thread.
Fascism is more likely to emerge if the womb of American capitalism keeps nurturing it like Rosemary's Baby than an abrupt end to the already very similar corporate police state. Order doesn't necessarily get restored when the market fails, and I'm less terrified of the currently existing Blackshirts than the ones of the near future if things continue on this course. The economy is already collapsing. The proposed further austerity coming down the line will be enforced with violence. "Fighting inflation" is equivalent to that, and it isn't the default position. It is a neolberal position that itself has a pedigree descended directly from fascism contra both a planned economy and gift economies. There are enough resources to go around, and there is enough labor available to take care of everyone better than the present system does, even in a terribly implemented socialism or syndicalism.
This is not even to touch on the fact that we need to change the economic system yesterday, and the longer we delay that, the less of whatever future you think austerity would preserve there is left. That is to say, the present and future calamity implied by a continuation of the capitalist mode of production is much graver than even a tremendous amount of terror and violence stemming from an abrupt and immediate shift in human and biological terms.
I didn't say it would.
You really love putting words in my mouth, huh?
That's not what I said at all. I said you think the line matters, which you do.
Okay. Did you have anything else to add to my labor of writing you a large chunk of analysis while I'm very sick other than to try and snipe a line you could cherrypick for debatebro points?
Tell that to the working class people of Zimbabwe whose country got ruined when the west used hyperinflation against them. It doesn't work like that in the real world.
Hyperinflation is when inflation is so high money loses its ability to store value all together. This basically leads to economic collapse and is not favorable for anyone. However inflation would have to be increasing by like 50% a month to reach those levels. By contrast the Atlantic capitalist model demands a slavish dedication to maintaining a 2% annual inflation rate in order to keep a "stable business climate." You want to expand social programs with government spending? Not an option in the west because it increases inflation. The choice isn't between no inflation or hyperinflation, there is a huge middle ground that is not available because of capitalists' political interests
But the thing is as soon as any global south country tries to strike that middle ground and increase inflation, the west will use it against them, and it's pretty easy for them to tip the scales into hyperinflation territory, though economic sanctions, asset freezes and trade restrictions. Combine this with capital flight and it's very easy to end up in hyperinflation territory.
you're right and that's sort of what I am getting at. The west enforces low inflation with imperialism because low inflation is best for the capitalists. Weak countries with weak currencies will be bullied very hard over this as you described, to the point of economic collapse. Inflation there is a weakness to be taken advantage of by imperialists.
Inflation happening in the imperial core with strong currencies like the dollar can't be exploited like that though, high inflation here has the potential to destabilize the entire global capitalist financial system, which for us is a good thing.
Basically all I'm trying to say is the inflation rate is a political and economic tool and each level of inflation will benefit/hurt different people depending on how it is used. It's not as simple as low inflation = good and high = bad. It's only like that if you are a creditor.
This is best summed up my that Parenti speech about western encirclement and defending a revolution. It's not particularly about inflation, but it gets the general things right
https://youtu.be/uThpIDlfcBQ
I think it's this one, couldn't find a better video.
If you can’t afford food, it’s because you are being underpaid by capitalist parasites not because of inflation.
I mean both can be true at the same time, and both happening concurrently can definitely intensify poverty
Despite what neolibs wants us to believe, inflation isn't only caused by wage-price spirals, covid inflation is legit caused by supply side price gouging and rent seeking behavior in the face of demand uptick post lockdown
It's literally the capitalists fault
There are a lot of folks here who can't think in terms outside of the market, even as all the food they would ever need is growing all around them on vast swathes of unpopulated, unguarded agricultural centers for miles and miles.
Also that Lenin quote is fire. If you don't want the market to collapse and don't think it would be better if it did, you really aren't anything close to a communist, just a socdem with an ushanka
What about the marginal value of money though? If you need $500 to live and you only have $400 due to inflation, you're much worse off than someone who's seen 5 million become 4 million.
Well, you don't actually need 500 to live. You need 500 to pay people for permission to live, permission you don't actually need if you take what you need without paying or have a mutual aid network in place to have your needs met.
And if we had people with guns expropriating the means to live like that inflation would be a moot question.
Inflation is a means to an end and a propaganda tool. Since it's a liberal justification for austerity, no more and no less, why not turn it on its head? If our cries to stop being murdered for a third vacation home are met with violence, then the flimsy justifications against armed resistance and expropriation lose any semblance of authenticity for all but the most entrenched bootlickers.
This isn't novel either - historically the only time we were very close to a revolution in the US was during the Great Depression, where money couldn't do much for you even when you could get it. That isn't to say that the conditions being awful are a positive thing, but rather that when they are, as they are now, the collective fever dream of the omnipotence and omnipresence of the market begins to dissipate, and many of us won't starve for vampires who could care less if we wheeze to death in a gutter somewhere. The suffering necessarily concurrent with crisis is bad, but we didn't and don't cause that. It is a result of the violent and unjust system that cannot support its own weight. When it topples, we should celebrate and seize the opportunity to move beyond it, rather than justifying the very same logic that's killing thousands of our coworkers every single day right now.
Freeing yourself from the market takes either lots of money, or lots of knowledge, time, and resources. Probably an equivalent of at least $10,000 per person, if you convert all the labor to USD.
agreed, penis inflation is good
also congratulations, or sorry for your loss idk
inflate the penis to a size where you cant get erect without passing out
