I know you're nonbinary or some other form of trans. There are people out there who do not like you and think you deserve no sympathy yet still call themselves leftists. This entire post is kinda stupid but all I actually want to say is, these people are garbage no matter how communist they might be and we should not welcome them
What if, instead of treating historically significant communists as greater, or throwing them away in pursuit of mythical pure ideal communists, we treat them as whole people with strengths and flaws that can be appreciated and critiqued?
Agree with your opinion on nazbols I didn't really take in what your post was about. We do need to draw lines in the sand with regards to who we work with and what we're willing to compromise on (no nazbols, "conservative communists", etc)
Sounds good to me. That's exactly what I want. But the feeling I get is that in a lot of commie spaces we worship our leaders like they are saints who never did anything wrong in their lives.
I agree, many communists will say Great Man Theory is bunk also seem afraid to criticize even within safe circles of discussion.
Yea i dont get this, from my experience commie spaces worship their leaders the least or at least provide actual and deep criticism for their leaders when prompted.
Nah, it's a pretty common stereotype that commies are very very devoted to the people that wrote the theory and lead the countries. I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. They are heros of the people after all. But we should also talk about what they did wrong and not censor people who pose criticism.
What did Kim Kong Un do that makes you so quick to denigrate him? (this is rhetorical, I'm not actually asking lol, sorta). Just propaganda you heard in US media?
Also I don't know that Stalin was an antisemite.
Also you keep saying "we" like online western social media discourse is anything to base in-groups or understanding of the world on.
I have honestly no Idea who I mean with we. Hexbear? The other commies I hang out with maybe? Whatever I just want people to have higher standarts for who they consider an ally
I read that he was an antisemite in a discussion on quora... but it's a discussion on quora so not sure of it's actually true, the homophobe part is legit though
"I read it on quora"
Is this a bit? Because if not, come on, comerade...
Repeat after me: Quora is not a reliable source for information. I will not get my information on geopolitics from Quora.
If you're taking fucking quora users at face value (that is, western chauvanist know-it-alls), I think you should take a long hard look at your media comprehension skills. Read a book about Stalin written by a communist like the one linked by RedWizard
I know that it's what I wanted to say with the previous message you are replying to. I'm sorry, I honestly don't know why I thought it was a good idea to make this post.
It's a learning experience for you, and that's worth something!
I guess what I'd say about this is. The US kills 40,000 US residents per year just from delayed or denied medical care, and certainly a percentage of those people are trans, marginalized, etc. So Biden and Bill/Hillary Clinton can pay lip service to caring about LGBTQIA people, but having the appearance of caring without lifting a finger to save them? That's peak liberalism.
Communists don't do that. That's why Cuba has free medical transitions for their trans people.
If somebody attacks Stalin for being homophobic, that's usually a bad faith attack. Every US president was homophobic and legislated viciously against LGBTQIA people. The soviet union was better than that.
A couple of things here: (1) Quora is not a great source, which you seem to understand (2) I'm going to refrain from making statements about topics I'm ill-informed on, and likely full of brain worms about (3) I will start the deworming process with this book: Stalin: History and Critique of A Black Legend by Domenico Losurdo. (4) I will engage in the time-honored leftist tradition of throwing 600-page books at people.
Thanks for the book recc. I'll check it out. The actual message I wanted to say was simply that economically left but culturally right people are shitstains, nothing more.
I hear you. Stalin is definitely one of those mythical figures in history, where the myth is larger than the history. The goal is to separate the myth from the history. As the CIA puts it in their document "Comments On The Change In Soviet Leadership"
- Even in Stalin's time there was collective leaderhsip. The western idea of a dictator within the Communist setup is exaggerated. Misunderstandings on that subject are caused by lack of comprehension of the real nature and organization of the Communist power structure. Stalin, although holding wide powers, was merely the captin of a team [...]
My hope in reading that book is to clear up my own "misunderstandings on that subject".
I think the "Stalin hated the jews" is a confused mix of outright anti-communist propaganda and a misunderstanding or deliberate misrepresentation of later soviet policy.
Usually "the doctors plot" gets brought up, which was an alleged conspiracy involving nine doctors, six of whom were jewish. After a moderate amount of kerfuffle nothing came of it, no one was prosecuted, and nothing happened.
There are allegations that Stalin was going to put Jewish Soviets in camps. There is absolutely nothing to these arguments. No documents, nothing. Just "well my unlce talked to some guy" bs.
Anti-semitism was a very serious crime during most of the ussr's history.
During the cold war Israel"s "aliyah" bullshit was used by a bunch of ethnic Jewish Soviets as an excuse to defect. There was a lot of back and forth between the Soviet state and Soviet Jews about emigrating, and the US and Israel were happy to use it as a bludgeon. Afaik it had little to do with anti-Semitism and everything to do with emigration to Israel creating a brain-drain among a subset of Soviet citizens, with fully half of the people who emigrated to Israel actually switching flights half-way and defecting to the US, taking their education and technical knowledge with them. Israel actually imposed a bunch of "prove you're Jewish" rules when it turned out a lot of people who got visas to move to Israel had no intention of doing so and hadn't had any real connection to Jewish religion or culture for decades, they just had "Jewish" as their national classification on their id paperwork because their parents or grandparents were Jewish.
I've also heard anti-communists try to link Stalin's rootless cosmopolitan speech to anti-semitism.
Stalin is dead. His outdated social positions can't hurt you. And I don't think he was that antisemetic. Maybe he was slightly antisemetic personally, but his policies never reflected that, which is the thing that actually matters.The good he did far outweighs the bad. As is often repeated in megathreads, Stalin saved the world from fascism.
I don't understand the point of this post.
I don't either. In fact i'll probably delete this shit. I just let myself get angered by some guys online. And I don't even know if what I've written about Stalin is even true at all because my sources are shit. Sorry for the removed take.
And yes, I know he did great things. That's why I called him a great leader in the original post.
The existing subjugation of the various oppressed groups is inextricably tied to economics
This is a blatant rejection of the concerns of intersectionality. This helps no one. I don't entirely understand what OP's spiel is getting at, but to think that you can entirely separate class from your identity in regards to things like gender, race, and sexuality is nonsense and a gross oversimplification that eschews real-world concerns simply because of denotation. It seems like you are asserting, "Communism, by definition, is an economic system, so therefore, in practice, it has zero to do with social issues." which is wildly unnuanced.
I know that. This isn't about who is a true commie and who isn't. It's just about who we consider good people and who we consider bad people
there is no class-conscious working class in the west so there is no left. simple as
Do you think that there is a Western right? Or a Western Center? Or is all of western politics just an illusion?
I have no idea if what I said about them was even true, I'm just echoing my dad and some guys on quora
if only all the internet engagements could end like this
What provoked this? Cuz I really am not sure what you're referring to.
Economical leftists that are culturally right yet still get seen as allies even though they are by no means better than your regular rightist.
This is so dumb and childish. A revolution is made from the masses, and guess what? The masses are mostly conservative. Good luck doing a revolution with your 3 friends who are absent of any prejudice
This is so childish and dumb. The masses are not inherently, monlithically bigotted shitheads. The early ussr had anti-semites shot and you can have malicious bigots shot in your revolution, too.
I said the masses are conservative. And in fact they are. The progressive part of a population is almost always a minority
No. I'm not collaborating with homophobes and racists no matter what and no matter how childish that may be. It goes against everything I believe.
That's not very materialist. If people were like this no AES states would currently exist, and those marginalized peoples would live far worse lives. Cuba would not be so socially progressive right now, and Palestinians would not be able to fight against the genocide.
Unfortunate truth is that economically unstable countries are socially conservative, and improving that will require working with and organizing those socially conservative masses.
My response to this is always: please do it, then, because none of them will ever listen to me, the subject of their ire. I cannot be expected to be my own liberator and a patient, knowing teacher to my oppressors at the same time. Allies in advantageous positions need to leverage their afforded social power- their privilege- to do this work, and in my experience, they do not. But a lot of them sure do sound exactly like this.
This is the truth for Central America and our left-wing. We have better understandings of revolution and more effective actions than the American left but we’re also behind on some social issues.
This also goes for poor parts of the US. Go to the ghettos or the rural boonies and in both places people aren’t exactly going to be woke. It’s an unfortunate byproduct of poverty.
If you’re especially sensitive then organizing might not be for you because the masses can be brutal when they’re still at the learning stage.
And how does that help anything? Were you born without any prejudice, or someone teached you to respect others?
I was born without any prejudice, just like any child. It is prejudice that is learned.
So you're suggesting we teach the conservatives about respect and tolerance and try to free them from the ideas their social cicle put in their brains. Then alright. I misinterpreted your first message then because I thought you were suggesting going with the conservative masses simply because we have some shared goals
Between, lets suppose, (Homophic anti imperialist) vs (pro lgbt+ imperialist), a marxist will side against imperialism. You dont have to agree, you dont have to be a marxist. Im just telling you how it works. Of course this is a veeeeery abstract example, but i guess you get the ideal. And also
So you're suggesting we teach the conservatives about respect and tolerance and try to free them from the ideas their social cicle put in their brains
I think if dont do that you are helping the people who teached them to be the way they are
Homophobes, transphobes, racists, bigots and conservatives should not be welcomed in our ranks. Or at the very least, we should be more critical.
I would hope that this would be an uncontroversial take, now I am left agreeing with what is allegedly /c/badposting
Idk what you said about Stalin or Mao tho
Wait did I post in the wrong sub? Is this even considered casual conversation ? Whatever man I'm going to bed. Mods, just delete this crap if I'm at the wrong adress here, it's just a rant to let out some anger
