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My partner lived in Nanjing for like eight months nearly a decade ago, and still talks about how awesome it was. Great food, cool people, neat cities, beautiful countryside, easy to travel around, yadda yadda. Having visited and travelled around a bit since, it's a pretty awesome place, though initial culture shock is real and you'll benefit a lot from getting your Mandarin up to scruff.
Long and the short of it is that it's like moving to any other country - if it sounds like a good fit, pull the trigger
I think being around people is going to be the biggest culture shock for me lol. Crazy to imagine being able to move around and do things normally because they actually handled their outbreak well.
But you're right. I can use duolingo or something to build familiarity before going, but I'm worried it'll be isolating not knowing the language well. I'd be working in an environment where English would be ubiquitous, but it's still limiting as far as social life and travel go.
In the cities there's enough English around to get by, but even knowing the barest basic Mandarin will improve your experience. It'll be hard not to pick some of it up naturally tbh, but just find a fluent speaker who you can chat with over a beer or whatever for a couple hours a week and you'll get there.
One of my favorite things was leaving the city and being utter dependant on my own Mandarin. Chinese are cool and it's nice to force yourself to speak the language.
Imo, middle class locals (from anywhere) that speak really good English and have a western mindset are basically white people. And gringos will spend their entire time with that crowd and never even try to get the county 🙄
That's reaffirming to hear. Thanks for your feedback. What about air quality? I guess it depends on which city/part of China you're in to some degree, but I'm used to very clear skies and being close enough to outdoor recreation areas that I can take advantage of that too.
My mom is from Nanjing and everytime I visit my grandparents there I’m astounded by how fast it’s grown. Growing up, they lived in a tiny room and I had to sleep on a cot when I visited. Now they live in this beautiful three bedroom condo that you’d have to be making six figures to rent out in TriBeCa or San Francisco. And these are pensioners we’re talking about
I lived in Wuhan for a few years as a teenager, my parents both taught English so we lived on campus the whole time. I love the country, it was one of the coolest experiences of my life. But the china worship here is fucking ridiculous. I don't feel like starting a fight but what I saw there was far from the image this site seems to have of it.
Yeah I'm not going into this thinking I'll spend a few years in socialist utopia. I figure I'll just see the country and a radically different way of life for myself, which is reason enough, while doing really interesting and rewarding work that's at worst morally neutral. Plus, I'll always be able to dunk on libs and chuds when I come back home and hear them say stupid shit by responding, "You haven't even been there chuckle fuck."
I highly recommend you go. Like I said one of the best experiences of my life. I would love to go back. No idea what your financial situation will be but we lived a fairly middle class life. Imo that's the best way to really experience another culture. Take the bus, eat street food, go to the same market the locals do. I did a fair amount of traveling too, there is so much to see but I would absolutely recommend Hainan island, skip the fancy hotels and see if can spend time in the fishing villages.
Thanks for the nudge. I submitted my application today based on the feedback in this thread. Financial situation would be pretty generous it looks like! Somewhere above 20k rmb/month, including a housing stipend. I've been told that's plenty.
My cousin lived on campus as an English teacher in one of the universities in Wuhan. We'd go to GuangGu in WuChang and hit up some of the bars there. There was this literally underground pub (half a storey below street level) that had hookahs and imported alcohol but literally had a max capacity of like 20 people near Vox and Prison, prominent xpat bars but wasn't completely riddled with laowai.
There was this middle aged American lady who was an English teacher, who my cousin was on tenuous terms with (the yank disagreed with her binge drinking, and also the way my cousin dresses for a lady, but some "politeness" from whatever region of Yankistan prevented her from saying anything directly, plus they worked together so they have to deal) would give out Christian literature, and/or bible stories as a extra reading for her students trying to learn English. It was an attempt at saving the souls of some godless commies.
I miss the city.
If you know any where in the states to get the type of lamian they make their please let me know, I've been craving it ever since I left. There is one place in DCs china Town that makes something close enough it scratches the itch but I'll fucking travel to New York if you know a place.
Like, Lanzhou lamian, the Hui cuisine? Or some hand pulled variation of Reganmian?
Yup the Lanzhou lamian, I somehow forgot it was made with beef broth. Probably explains why I can't find it, ever since I became a vegetarian my eyes just pass over anything with meat in it. Well that's a bummer.
I lived off and on in China between 2008 and 2010, playing for two different clubs in the WCBA. Honestly, I struck me as not that different from the US. We stayed in the best hotels and ate the best food and the cities were fun, if crowded, places to be. I know China has made huge strides to improve the lives of the people in the rural areas, but ten years ago the contrast in quality of life between urban and rural was pretty off putting.
I'd believe it - but tbh, so many US cities for me are almost psychologically damaging given the rampant cruelty and inhumanity of the homeless populations. To be clear, I mean it's cruel that such populations exist.
It's done a lot in the last couple of decades. I visit the most rural provinces since I come from Kyrgyzstan and the difference between those and what you would find in the coastal provinces is drastic, but it's getting better. Not too different then what you would find in other countries in regards to rural/city difference. The Chinese rural areas were just coming from a very low standard so takes time for them to get better.
I lived there for 5 years. Lived in a couple of different cities, but spent the majority of my time in Beijing. Spent a lot of time in T3 and lower cities too.
QoL largely depends on where you are, what your company is like, and honestly, how long you're staying.
If you have any specific questions or concerns feel free to ask. Would probably be better than me just word vomitting a 10k word essay on what the expat experience is like over there loll.
I bet people would appreciate that as its own thread!
Thanks so much for participating in the thread.
The salary range I'm looking at is about 20-23000 rmb/month depending upon local COL. Would that be enough to live pretty comfortably? I don't need fancy shit, I just want my own space and not to have to worry about basic luxuries like eating out or a travel budget for holidays. It seems well above the median nationally, but the cost of living in different cities can eat into that I'm sure.
What's the air quality like? Anyway to get away from it for a while? I'm used to living someplace with good outdoor recreation opportunities, so that's something that concerns me. I'd miss my walks/hikes/bike rides if the aq is nearly always unhealthy.
As far as the expat community goes - what're they like? Libs? Comrades? Cringe? I've stayed at a few hostels while traveling before, and got really sick of hostel people. It's fun in small doses, but the transient nature of the crowd leads to a TON of superficial and repetitive conversations. Have enough of those, and you start to realize most people traveling are super basic. Is it different for those who are working/staying over a slightly longer period of time?
Opportunities for political education and praxis while in China? I guess my job would loosely benefit the cause in the long run - but beginning to organize and agitate for leftist causes has become part of my life here in the states. I'll admit, this job would be something of an escape from this shit hole country (for at least a little while) so perhaps not thinking about that stuff would be a benefit, but I'm curious all the same.
I don't know ANY mandarin. Making a basic effort to learn a bit is a gimme, but how limiting is the language barrier generally speaking? I probably wouldn't have time to become more than casually proficient given the length of the contract. Could always renew if I love it and don't want to leave, but I'm mostly thinking this will be a 1-2 year position.
Woo, these are really good questions :) Answers below -- any edits are to clean up formatting. This still ended up long, but I hope it is helpful!
The salary range I’m looking at is about 20-23000 rmb/month depending upon local COL
That is definitely enough to live a very comfortable life. For context, I made 15k/month and still had enough to pay rent (did both roommate and solo living comfortably), pay student loans, save, travel extensively, and go out several nights a week. That was all in Beijing, which is still quite expensive even if it isn't THE most expensive. It really comes down to how you budget.
One quick note about the quirks of housing (and this may not be applicable if your company is taking care of your housing): Rent is paid 3-6 months at a time. So when you first move into a place, you'll actually need 5 month's rent up front -- 1 month key money, "last month", + first 3 month rent payment. Broker fees may or may not be added depending on how exactly you found the apartment.
I don't know what kind of company you'll be working for -- some multinationals will take care of all the details I listed above to ensure you have a smooth transition living wise. Local companies vary in how they will help you with this. Most education companies (in case you're gonna be a teacher) leave you to figure all this out on your own. Definitely make sure you get as much information as possible into how much help they're giving you and research/save $$ accordingly.
What’s the air quality like?
This REALLY depends on where you're living. Are you going to be in Beijing? You're fucked. Sorry. But since you said there are plenty of outdoor activities available, I'm guessing it might not be Beijing, in which case you're slightly less fucked, but it still won't be great. You can probably expect most days to be around 100 AQI no matter where you live. You'll want to download an AQI tracking app when you get there and treat it like a weather forecast. You'll definitely want to invest in a heavy duty air purifier or 2 for your living space, and actual N95s for going outside on the bad days.
The pollution is either something you get used to, or something that becomes a deal breaker. I'll be completely frank and say it is at least part of why I left. I was sick with lung and upper respiratory infections about 60% of the time, lost my voice for several months out of the year, broke out in hives on the 750+ days -- HUGE caveat to this is that I also smoked, which obviously just exacerbated the problem. So if you smoke, do yourself a favor and quit now. I don't mean to be overly negative, there are plenty of people who adjust well, it just wasn't my experience and wasn't something I was able do deal with very well over the long term.
As far as the expat community goes - what’re they like? Libs? Comrades? Cringe?
90% cringe. This is obviously a huge generalization but the expat community can basically be broken up into the following categories:
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Students: Cringe. We've all been there. I've been there. But it is still cringe. There are a few that are ok, who don't take things too seriously, who don't think they're going to "save China" or "save US China relations", who are willing to sit back, shut up, and actually listen to Chinese people. If you can find those kinds of students, then hang out with them. The rest are there to party somewhere exotic for a semester.
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Travellers: Cringe. Especially the ones who are "there to experience like, the REAL China, man". Hippy libs. You pretty much hit the nail on the head in your initial comment with the superficial and repetitive conversations you'll have with this group.
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Business People at large multinational firms/NGOs: Some are lib, most are your run of the mill soulless business people.
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Sexpats: Self explanatory
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English teachers: Mostly alcoholics. Mostly libs. A few okay ones here and there.
I spent most of my time actively avoiding the expat crowd, but that was largely due to my language skills and the fact that my goal was to become as proficient in Chinese as I could. These are thus pretty "armchair" observations. It is also possible that the expat landscape has changed since I left, especially as there have been reforms in visa laws. I think it is mostly the same as any group of (mostly) white people -- most are bad, a few might be ok, but it is going to take a while of putting out feelers until you find your 'people' so to speak.
Opportunities for political education and praxis while in China?
Praxis and or agitation? NONE. As a foreigner, you cannot be politically active in China in any meaningful capacity. There will be a clause in your contract either explicitly prohibiting you from participating in any political activity, or a "morality clause" saying if your company finds out you're doing anything they don't directly agree with, they will fire you (this is a catchall clause and political activity will fall under it). Political activity is also grounds for deportation/revocation of your visa outside of any action by your company, if discovered by the relevant authorities. Source: I worked in HR at my company, handling our foreigners. I translated employment contracts and had to be up to date on Chinese labor law and Visa law. Caveat is that it has been 5 years since I left, so this may have changed, but I really can't imagine that it has.
This is important, and I'd kind of like you to sit back for a second and think about what it means from a Chinese perspective to have a foreigner actively participating in local politics (to clarify, since text can be hard to parse -- I don't mean this in a disparaging way at all, I just want to encourage a moment of reflection and stepping out of your own experience).
The long and short of it is that it really isn't a good look. This is also a country that prohibits labor unions that aren't Party approved (so no spontaneous worker organizing).
I don't even think that local community organizations would be very receptive to having a foreigner participate, and may in fact outright not allow it. For a couple of reasons, ranging from "outside agitator" (probably an unconscious belief rather than a direct accusation) to "he's not Chinese, what could he possibly contribute".
The only things I can think of that would afford any kind of meaningful community action would be volunteer organizations like animal rescues. There may be expat run volunteer orgs, which I'd encourage you to check out once you're on the ground (you can find these through whatever the local expat publication is), but these are probably going to run very lib tbh.
To switch gears to educational opportunities....I hate to quash your dreams but most Chinese (in my personal experience) are either actually politically apathetic or pretend apathy until they get a good feeling re: where you stand. Harmony is a very important social norm, so by and large, people are not very willing to engage in challenging discussions that could come off as participating in conflict. If you get on their good side, most will be open about hating the USA, which is always fun :) I wouldn't expect much more than that for the most part. Again, people are individuals, and there are always exceptions to the rule, but it will be hard to find -- and you may not always know when you have found it until the relationship has been fostered for a while, if that makes sense.
Now, the exception to this is older people, but the language barrier is going to be a big stop gap for you here. They're much more willing to talk about their opinions and the world as they see it, but they're also very much less likely to speak English.
I don’t know ANY mandarin. Making a basic effort to learn a bit is a gimme, but how limiting is the language barrier generally speaking?
If you're going to be in Beijing, Shanghai, or Shenzhen, you're gonna be fine. Learn the basics: where you live -- e.g. closest subway stop or closest street intersection, your allergies (food and medication in case there's a medical emergency), general pleasantries, how to order food, "Sorry, I can't speak Chinese, are you ok if I use my phone to translate". Phrases like "Where is x [restaurant, landmark, park, etc". Definitely learn your numbers. Directions are most often given as NSEW, so learn things like "street", "turn" "keep walking straight", and the cardinal directions.
If you're going to be in a T2 city, you'll have a little bit of a harder time, but it definitely isn't impossible.
The only situation I can see this being a significant issue is if you're in a sub T3 village somewhere, but it doesn't seem like that'll be the case.
It'll definitely be disorienting. But you will pick things up. Don't worry about trying to get things perfect when you try to speak to people. Most will appreciate you even trying -- the effort will override the mistakes and people will generally be a lot more accommodating when you're really trying.
True story that may make you feel better, we had a guy who refused to even try to learn any Chinese at all who rented a single room from an older aunty (landlord) who couldn't speak any English. He communicated with her entirely through google translate. They had like dinners and movie nights and went shopping and stuff together. Obviously it isn't perfect, but especially if you're communicating with the same person over and over again, you kind of start to build a rapport that can bridge the issues with google translate, if that makes sense.
Great response. Again, thank you so much for your time and contribution.
Good to know about the air quality problems. That gives me some reference for which cities to choose if I'm given the option (Exclusively T1 and T2 cities). I'd probably prefer greater language barriers than air quality problems, so I'll have to do some more digging on that if/when I get the offer.
I was able to clear up elsewhere that I didn't necessarily see myself as either wanting nor being capable of directly contributing to political causes (in retrospect for what are obvious reasons), but was hopeful for the ability to find politically educated people to converse with. It sounds like from your response that this is unlikely at best, and that I might just need to put that aspect of my personality on hold for a while. I'm kind of deciding between this contract and trying to start a career in political education/organizing here in the US, so it's a real fork in the road for me. Via VPN I could probably still shitpost on Chapo, though, so at least I've got that going for me.
I guess when it comes to language that's a challenge I'm willing to take on. I have a pretty good ear for languages and am an extremely fast learner, so I'm sure I'll manage fine no matter where I end up eventually. It'll just be the beginning that's tricky as I get up to basic proficiency of navigating the environment.
Glad I could help some!
I'll say that it seems you have the right kind of attitude, especially w/r/t language, so if you do go for it, I think you'll do fine :) Good luck in your endeavors comrade!
What are some good ways to meet Chinese people and make friends in a T1 or T2 city if you're semi-competent at the language?
Really the same way you'd go about meeting them anywhere else. I met most of my closest friends either through school or bars. University adjacent areas usually have cultural exchange activities and stuff going on, so that might be a good place to start (depending on your age bracket...maybe not the best optics to do this if you are older for obvious reasons).
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I would really advise you to stay away from politically agitating people in China, especially as a foreigner.
Yup, just realize you are a visitor in China, just like if you are a house guest you don't start giving tips about how they can improve something or what you don't like about their house. You will be under the watch of the police as a foreigner and they will check up on you, do not give them reasons to look more closely at you since it will be uncomfortable.
Yes you're right - avoiding direct political action is likely a good idea. That's not quite what I meant though. I guess what I meant was whether or not it was possible to find conmrades/leftist spaces. I would hope it would actually be much easier given that, struggle sessions aside, it is explicitly a socialist state. Maybe this question betrays how ignorant I really am and doesn't make sense in the context of China.
Valuable perspective. It seems like if I were to take this job, I'd just have to put that part of my personality aside for a bit. Hard pill to swallow.
Really interesting insight, thanks. Beijing is on the list of potential locations, but from what I'm hearing from others, there are aspects that don't sound very appealing to me as compared to other locations (Pollution perhaps the largest).
I am 0% familiar with Mandarin is I guess a worry of mine. A year or two probably wouldn't be long enough to become more than casually proficient either given how notoriously difficult it is for English speakers to learn. How big of a deal did you find the language barrier to be?
I lived there for two years. It’s very easy to make friends at your workplace, especially because everyone will want to practice their English. However like others have said I would 100% not recommend getting involved politically. Your average expat will probably be libby at best or actively racist at worst (in my city it was maybe 50/50; I met only one other leftist during those two years). In any case, your political conversations with expats will be about the US or Xi anyway.
In terms of language, I didn’t learn much (I learned a lot my first year but not my second as I had found a job in another country, so I started learning that language instead). You basically need to know how to give directions home and to the train station and how to order in a restaurant (wo yao X is usually sufficient). Plus other daily pleasantries.
Chinese people are super friendly and welcoming, and if you make friends you’ll have a friend for life. Make sure to take some time to travel and try everything. Basically every village has its own dialect/cuisine so there’s no lack of things to do. When you want a taste of home even most T3 cities will have at least one import shop plus your usual fast food places like McDonald’s. Sometimes you can find the weirdest things from back home. I found a British pickle I love at the family convenience store next to my apartment.
They’ve been cracking down on work outside of your contract but it’s very easy to make extra money teaching English.
If you like beer there are a lot of microbreweries popping up, so make sure to try some. Your generic chinese beer is pretty terrible.
Bring some masks that filter out the smallest particles, especially if you’ll live in the north where the pollution has been the worst, especially during the winters.
Enjoy it and let me know if you have any questions!
Thanks for the contribution! I've had many of my questioned answered in other comment threads, but if anything comes up I'll be sure to let you know. I submitted the application today, so as the process evolves I'm sure I'll have more questions.
I’ve got a buddy who has spent a decade and China from the US. He now has a family, children, nice job, and rarely comes back to America. I’m pretty jealous of him.
A true comrade cannot possibly snitch, as they forgot everyone's names.
If you want to understand China, watch Cobra Kai on Netflix. It perfectly explains all about China.
I got a cousin in Shanghai, overheard him on the phone with my mom couple months ago telling her he's never leavin lol
I have a friend that seems to be a long term migrant as well at this point. I don't know if I could bring myself to leave the US forever - I've got a guilt complex about abandoning the work I've been doing trying to build socialism/revolutionary potential here, but it's such a cool opportunity and would likely benefit my mental health to see a different way of life for a while.
I have worked there for some time, but in the mining sector, so I stayed in Baotou, which is post apocalyptic in it's scenery. I like China, absolutely hate the cities, Northerns are cool and chill, Southerners and city folk from Shanghai are uptight and full of themselves.
That sounds like cities in general. Unfortunately, I'm a filthy urbanite too, so I'd probably not be that phased.
If you stay in the Northeast I can recommend Dalian as a really clean seaside city (I grew up in Liaoning and I think it's better than the capital Shenyang). In the South there's Hangzhou and Nanjing but I'd avoid Shanghai unless you're really into the super dense New York vibes (comes with the same kind of snooty petit bourgeois elitism too). Beijing is probably the easiest for a foreigner because everyone speaks English but it's also got some of the worst traffic and hectic life.
Since you mentioned travel, Xi'an and Chongqing are worth a look, it's pretty chill but I'm not sure about job prospects as a foreigner.
Hangzhou and Nanjing are options on the list! I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for the advice.
I'm a filthy Slav from a republic neighboring China so I guess Northerners are the closest to what I am used to culture wise and way of life. Like all my coworkers would say, "Those people from the South, they are always scheming, trying to make money." I never experienced being schemed, but the way of life was way quicker and more cut throat, at least in opinion. Likewise, the people seemed more closed off in the South and would piss around the bush more often.
An old friend from Uni teaches there now, seems to really enjoy it.
I know someone like that too. It's what gave me the idea to even look.
I say do it man, if you aren't tied down to the US it sounds like an awesome personal opportunity. I promise there will still be organizing work here in a few years, but you might not have a chance like this again.
So the consensus is that is is mostly like america but with less meanness and more hope for the future?
