Map of countries with bans: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/Burka_ban_world_map.svg/1024px-Burka_ban_world_map.svg.png
I would say that the koran being created by god or not is still debated, and there were movements like 1000 years ago arguing that the koran is a product of it's time and can be changed. Ibn Taymia (fuck him) was killed by the kalif for claiming the koran was perfect and couldn't be reinterpreted.
I am not sure about the other modern schools but Ibn Taymia became the thought-father of hanbalism of which salafism and wahabism are branches, the most reactionairy form of islam and also one of the less popular by population. The wahabites are also the ones always crying about Shirk, the rest don't consider, for examble, historical buildings, Shirk, or care as much about the concept in the first place.
The others as far as i know don't belive the koran is crated by god.
I hope i translated the terminology right.
Trying to tell people what exactly they can or can not wear is objectively bad, this should be pretty clear. If women's liberation is the goal (which most countries who have banned it have claimed), the more appropriate response would be work towards removing the social hierarchies that tend to place men above women (whether it be through improving access to healthcare for women, abolishing the systems which tend to make women reliant on men in capitalist systems, etc). If these things are achieved, then women who don't want to wear it won't feel forced to by their society, and those that do wish to wear it can do so freely. Banning the burqa is really just racist governments being racist, with a facade of caring about women to deflect backlash.
BumpInTheNight's quoting an article on the Xingjiang ban from an English language CPC news site almost word for word:
Lawmakers in the Xinjiang Uygur autonomous region have passed China's first legislation on anti-extremism to prevent terrorism from spreading in the region.
The regulation, adopted on Wednesday by the Xinjiang People's Congress, prohibits people in the region from wearing full-face coverings and long beards, which are deemed to promote extremism.
Doesn't make it any less gross, but they originally tried to post this in c/sino and it got deleted, so I assume that's what they're talking about.
The article itself is quoting from a law called Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region Regulation on De-extremification, chapter II, article 9:
(7) Wearing, or compelling others to wear, burqas with face coverings, or to bear symbols of extremification;
(8) Spreading religious fanaticism through irregular (以非正常) beards or name selection;
As far as I have understood from hearing from Uighurs is that neither face coverings nor the specific beards referred to(Basically long ass under the chin) are traditional to Uighurs nor have been common before the influx of Wahhabism in the region, this is different from France or other countries banning people who have long standing traditions in their specific culture to wear these things. Now you may disagree with the policy on principle and thats a fine stance to take, but its not honest or correct to make these two policies into the exact same.
This is similar to when accusations arise of forcing Uighurs to drink alcohol, there are long standing traditions of home brewing wine in Xinjiang among the Uighur, there is no reason to force anyone to drink alcohol cause for the most part they already do, unless again there is influence from traditions outside of Xinjiang and the Uighurs.
This whole post really feels more like an attempt of dishonest dunking on people rather than an honest and good faith discussion about China and Xinjiang, if you wanna discuss these policies then discuss them, don't make a bait and switch where its really obvious anyone reading will think of France and then go "Sike its actually Xinjiang bet you feel foolish now".
I can't exactly call you a liar since I don't know what you know or don't know but the threads structure is really suspect, and again, I made other points that you could meet about the specific situations and reasonings for the laws made in Xinjiang.
specific situations and reasonings for the laws made in Xinjiang.
The reasonings are about extremism/terrorism
Yes, what do you think about them?
It feels like you are doing this neutral facade cause you came in prepared with articles and archive links but you don't really seem to have an open opinion about it.
Most hotly debated issues have valid points on both sides:
Valid points for the ban: It oppresses women, it's not required by the Qu'ran, women never choose to wear it, hiding your face is creepy in many valid cultures
Valid points against the ban: anonymity is good, women do choose to wear it, cultural freedom
But in this specific situation also the things mentioned are not part of the actual traditional culture of the region and the people, but something deliberately spread by a more extreme tendency of the religion. Like if one of the christian sects like the Jehovas Witnesses or whatever started spreading far more conservative traditions and values into a region with no tradition of them. I would say that creates a special situation where religious freedom is of course hurt and there probably are immigrants who have this as their traditional culture who may be hurt, but also that this is a step in undermining a very real attempt to spread extreme traditions and tendencies by foreign groups and powers.
Hey, could I get some sources for the Uighur culture not having long beards, drinking wine, not covering faces etc? I'm currently reading through this site and the laws and stuff cited there do make China appear really bad.
I wish I had a solid source but mainly its just shit I've picked up on from time to time reading about this stuff, most of the sources on Uighur culture either seems to be in Chinese or Uighur or written specifically by defectors which means its most likely got a ton of bias going on.
Im pretty sure that site is run by a rabid anti-china guy tho.
But in this specific situation also the things mentioned are not part of the actual traditional culture of the region and the people, but something deliberately spread by a more extreme tendency of the religion
Does that make it more justified or less?
In my opinion it makes it more justified since it is a consequence of an outside culture deliberately trying influence and radicalize the traditional culture in order to make it more conservative and drive up conflicts. As opposed to basically every western country that has done or considered this where its a refugee wave of people who have had this culture as their tradition for ages thats now being suppressed solely because of islamophobia and white supremacy.
Are all Muslim dudes actually wearing fake Halloween costume beards? If so that fucking rules and I'm converting
It's not even correct to what he is referencing, he is trying to reference a piece of legislation that itself references irregular/abnormal beards in terms of what Uighurs traditionally wear vs what might be a possible sign of influence from wahhabism or other more extreme tendencies that arent traditional to Xinjiang.
Conflicted. If you want to free women to wear what they want, it needs a thoughtful implementation, not just replacing cultural authority with state authority. Caucasian police forcing Arab women to strip almost naked in public is totally counterproductive and just a bad excuse for racist power abuse.
Not even a debate. People who think this probably don’t know many Muslims. It’s blatant islamophobia. Most of the based Muslim activists I knew locally are hijab wearing women and are proud of it.
Burqa can and has been used to oppress women, including members of my family, but if you’re looking at tools to oppress women in western society surely you’d start elsewhere. It’s nowhere near as widespread as it’s made out to be. Demonisation of women wearing burqa on the other hand is very dangerous and has caused countless hate crimes towards those women.
They’re rare and new for most Muslim communities, vast majority wear hijab and wore a simple shawl around their head prior to the 70s/80s. For example my grandparents’ generation still wear saris, while their daughters and grandchildren wear more conservative hijabs and even burkas.
Most 2nd and 3rd generation Pakistanis and Bangladeshis in east London tend not to wear them because it’s not what they grew up around and others see it as extreme but commendable (like a sacrifice/symbol of devotion to god). Having said that, I do know a comrade through momentum who does cover her face. I don’t necessarily agree with her reasons. If anything I’d discourage it within my own community.
It’s like when chuds bring up black on black crime. Yes it’s important to address the issue, but that’s not what they’re doing is it? Muslim women are already one of the most targeted groups for hate crimes in Western Europe.
Alright buddy, don't fucking paint me as if I'm going around supporting France doing this fucking shit like goddamn thats straight up slanderous shit. I've been saying that China has a vastly different context for doing something like this and one that is understandable as almost entirely focused on combatting a specific form of radicalization in the region. VS western countries that take people that have this as long long standing traditions and culture and just trying to erase those aspects.
they're bad
edit: but Huldra's right that the situation in Xinjiang that lead to them is vastly different to the situation in France and other european countries
In The Netherlands we have a ban on Niqabs, but not on burqas. They are prohibited in public spaces like the hospital or the train station.
The law was first introduced by the PVV an islamophobic racist party run by Geert Wilders. He did this under the guise that it was for safety by putting it in legislation banning more face covering like those used by robbers. Because of this framing the liberal parties, like the ruling VVD, could support under the pretense of national security. Everyone knew that this was not really what this was about, the media even called it the "burqa verbod" meaning burqa ban. But because of plausible deniability and the fact that many of their voters are in favour of these kinds of policies, they supported it.
What happened then (although probably simultaneously) was that the progressive parties started backing it under the pretense of advancing women's rights. They said that women were forced by their family to wear them. This is the case, but some women also choose to wear it them selves, but they refuse to acknowledge this.
Obviously the national security is a dog whistle. The women's rights argument also doesn't hold up. The thought pattern is that if women need to get on the train, they need to stop wearing their niqab. What is then assumed is that these women will thus stop wearing niqabs, but what is the more likely scenario is that they will not stop wearing their niqab, but they will stop using the train. If you are forced by your family or your religion to wear a niqab, then you will probably do everything you can to keep it on and thus avoid publicspaces and thus get more isolated and easier to exploit. Emancipation gets less likely this way instead of more likely. And the women who aren't forced to wear it are now forced to not wear it, which isn't an improvement in my book either.
Take this with a pinch of salt. I'm not muslim myself.
I think these laws are the wrong way to go about addressing an important social concern.
Perhaps it would be more productive to deal with the ideological underpinnings* of the burqa rather than ham-fistedly restricting your populace.
*Meaning the cultural subjugation of women not Islam itself in case that wasn't clear.
I mean I'd be willing to discuss the topic if there was a justification that didn't involve thinly veiled racism, but I've never heard one. In fairness I haven't really looked into the topic directly because of this assumption.
One argument that comes to mind (I haven't given it much thought) is that most cultures (non-burqa wearing cultures) have a strong cultural impetus to see a person's face, show their face. This could be said to be equally as important as the cultural impetus to wear a burqa.
There's women's liberation issues too.
It's hard enough to use Islam to justify the need for the burqa, which is why most Muslims don't.
if there was a justification that didn’t involve thinly veiled racism
The justification, I think, is that it's "clothing that promotes religious extremism" ("宣扬宗教极端思想的服饰")
Sorry to be a bit terse, but enforcing cultural behaviors sounds like idealism and a wide road to racism to me.
To address the sexist culture around the burqa with a ban is just treating the symptom, something that I would expect from liberals, but I would hope that most of us on the Left would have a deeper analysis. Changing the economic and legal relationships that enforce patriarchy will do more to liberate women, and the burqua will fade away (most likely, but at least it'll be a free choice) over time as women will more easily be able to leave a conservative/patriarchal culture if they so choose. This avoids replacing sexism with racism.
Nah, even a ban on clothing can't compare to the destruction of millions of muslim lives.
