Jesus christ Jordan Peterson is a disease.
Does this guy need help from
- a therapist and supportive friend circle
OR
- a group of internet fascists
Does this guy need help from
a therapist and supportive friend circle
Surely, he shouldn't come looking here for one. That's my take.
Well we aren't therapists or a friend circle with incels so yes that's consistent and good. Using left spaces as therapy for virulent toxic masculinity is a good way to completely exhaust everyone and provide no recovery or commiseration or sometimes even organizing space.
Individuals could go try and engage him on Reddit if they wanted to, i.e. in another space. Folks here show plenty of empathy as well as exhaust and disgust with a person that explicitly hates them. I think there are better uses of time for deconstructing misogyny and that online spaces are inherently limited in the extent to which anyone can take an empathetic path, beginning with the low resolution of communication. It's easy to stoke conflict and hate against the other. It's much harder to form a successful approach to internal regulation that isn't basically the same thing but turned inwards. e.g., our bullying of "left" transphobes, which I fully agree with.
When you talk about women the same way you talk about buying a house
"It is merely my rather high standards and lack of trivial, pointless and plebeian hobbies that make me unattractive to the feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeemales, particularly those of breeding age (local age of consent - local age of consent + 1.5). Wdym it's my personality? I'm in fact way too much of a nice guy!" :stupidpol:
At the very least, incels have largely moved past the "I'm a nice guy!" phrase. But also now they're just fascist.
Transactional thinking, especially when it comes to social and particularly romantic relationships, is poison.
yeah it's a deeply cynical and upsetting view of the world. bums me out just hearing them describe how they think social relationships work I can't imagine how depressing believing that crap must be and going through life imagining that no one was capable of caring about you for who you are as a person
The same crowd often believe that anyone that shows any kindness or consideration for other people is doing it to "try to get laid" or some other transactional motivation. :galaxy-brain:
of course they do once you accept that humans are incapable of acting out of anything but pure mercenary self interest it follows that all seeming kindness is in fact done out of mercenary self interrest
you accept that humans are incapable of acting out of anything but pure mercenary self interest
Never. :gigachad:
Dang, looking at that person's profile is bleak. I'm also depressed and lonely, but luckily I didn't let it turn me into a bitter, woman-hating incel.
I hope eventually they find the right thing that pulls them out of it, but just spite-posting on Reddit ain't it.
This is super depressing to read. Kinda hits home a bit too since I've basically had no social life since I was in college, many moons ago. I see people saying this guy has a lot of incel shit in his history and I won't defend that, but it really can be a huge issue finding places to meet other people after high-school / college age. Everywhere is a transactional space.
late capitalism in the most "developed" societies are putting humans into never before seen living conditions of isolation and alienation. The negative reactions to this (incel culture one of many) are real social phenomena that need to be addressed. The capitalist response to incels is basically the same pull yourself up by your bootstraps shit, and selling you a million products to become an "alpha male". We are gonna need some serious feminist communism to rectify the fucked up way people relate to eachother now, cuz incels have basically internalized so much ToxMasc that they have become victims to it while also becoming it's foot soldiers. They need to be liberated as well, some will probably thank us afterwards for not letting them wallow in hate and self-loathing and allowing them to feel some happiness in their miserable lives.
Back when I lived in a bigger city I had attempted to find groups to do stuff with through websites that sorta have open invitations for people to join hobby groups, the issue was that it was almost always at a restaurant which means you'd need to be able to afford going out to eat on a regular basis which I did not have the ability to do. Now that I live outside the big city, there is nothing. Any trans spaces are either for people under 21 or filled with boomers. At this point I'm just super anxious about going into public places which just continues to feed into the isolation.
I've basically given up on dating entirely because you can't convince me subjecting myself to predatory apps is good for me. They've made dating so "streamlined" and transactional a process that I'd rather stay alone than subject myself to it. I get why so many people have turned to incel shit because there is such a deep rot in our society that keeps us from being who we should be. In a community that supported these men and allowed them to fully express themselves, would they have turned into such shitters?
I had an extremely robust social support system early in college but it was because there were spaces and events created to get me to meet the rest of the community around me, there's nothing really out there for adults. Go out and eat with a bunch of rich white people, join a support group of boomers that would throw you out the instant you propose anything left of log cabin republican talking points, or sign up with organizations that don't even mention LGBT rights as part of their goals for "change."
Regarding the dating app point in particular, I'll add that there was a post here a few days ago about how the company that owns most of the big dating / hook-up services was funding anti-abortion groups.
left internetists will never be able to metabolize or properly engage with inceldom because it's a logical outcome of the real experiences of alienated subjects. no amount of "well they're just bad and they need to go to the brain mechanic to become good" will prevent loneliness from curdling into anger.
Personally, the moment I knew internet discourse would not contribute anything of value to the incel problem was when people almost immediately just turned it into another way to call people virgins derisively, and their main response to the problem was largely to double down on virgin-shaming, literally part of the problem.
Unlike a typical incel, he's somewhat aware that his own choices caused the loneliness. Maybe if he shares this info with his family instead of these psychos, they can help him
A lot of incels will admit to being too superficial and sexist to get a girlfriend if you listen to their woes long enough.
Maybe stop listening to Jordan Peterson and start acting like a member of our species - that would be a good start.
gulag all men between the ages of 17-25, especially the ytes.
Under my regime, they won’t even know it’s a gulag, they’ll actually think they’re something called “grad students” :lenin-laugh:
lmao, truly a prison for the mind.
something really should be done about academia, at least in the states. i can't speak to the experience outside the US, but i read somewhere that the academy, as an employer, is #2 for sexual assault/harassment only behind the military.
while many people go through grad school and come out on the other side relatively OK, some become absolutely deranged monsters with the worst instincts about management combined with supreme confidence confidence and institutional power over others' lives.
i went in as like a 35 year old so i had enough self-understanding to push back and get what i wanted, but i can't imagine being like 22-23 and just trusting these psychos.
Those stats are correct. Academia's structures are perfect for an abusive environment, just like the military.
Grad students are effectively chained to an advisor after the first couple years, lest they try and start over (which the department might explicitly prevent by having a mandatory maximum of years before graduating). That advisor has no explicit training in management or preventing sexual harassment or anti-racism. And like all shit in our patriarchical shitty society, many will be shitty and patriarchical and sex pests.
If your advisor does something shitty, what can you do? Generally speaking, you should be able to continue work, change advisors, and be supported as someone harmed by your employer. The advisor should be fired or massively demoted or forced into trainings and barred from having new students depending on the severity. That's what should happen. In reality, students rarely have the options or resources to do this on reasonable timeframes and feel coerced and stuck: sacrifice 3-5 years of work and their degree or keep working under the whims of a piece of shit for at least several more months, possibly until you graduate. This is one reason that grad students unionize, in fact: to make this less shitty.
Academia makes these situations inevitable by treating grad school like an apprenticeship and providing no structures for accountability by the workers. It even promotes these situations by protecting shitty professors, particularly when they bring in big grants. And the entire system makes these situations more likely because every step of the way, empathetic and minoritized people are filtered out by the existing shitty patriarchical people in charge. Even worse, just like in business, there is a reward for cutthroat and antisocial behavior, and I'm not surprised that so many profs that I interacted with only cared about publishing and prestige and bringing in gobs of cash to follow their intellectual interests, and barely cared at all about ensuring their students' success.
Disregard for the labor and humanity of grad students is baked into the system at the economic level as well. Either unpaid or poorly paid, grad students are hired based on the promise of getting a PhD and then m, presumably, a professorship, since that's the only thing they train you how to do (research, teaching, presentations, publishing, grant writing). But there aren't enough slots at every next level of the pipeline to professor. So they underpay based on a promise that won't be fulfilled and everything is dependent on the whims of one jerk (advisor), so it's unsurprising that their precarious position is further exploited.
Grad school should be ended until we figure out what the fuck is going on.
Edit: fun fact: I know of a professor who was censured for fucking up his student's prospects by abandoning them to go work on a side project. There were other problematic aspects to him as well. The university said, "okay, no more students for you for 3 years". 1 year after being censured, he was elected chair of the department.
1 year after being censured, he was elected chair of the department.
incredible. by default i don't trust anyone at chair level or above. the higher up they are, the more certain it is they are a purely opportunistic pod person / cannibal.
full disclosure, i work in the academy, though in a public service position rather than research or education. i am staff and my position is to launder the reputation of the institution to the community by fulfilling the institutions promises. naturally, my work/salary receives no monetary support from the university and i have to find external grants.
but what really chaps my ass is that, despite my decades of experience in the field, my BSc., my M.S., my graduate certificates, my management training and experience in the sector, my peer reviewed research publications, and my nationally awarded creative outreach work experience in multiple support disciplines, the institution and faculty treat me like i'm an unskilled peon because i don't have some bullshit PhD in some obscure garbage. whereas some fuckup faildouche who stuck around long enough that their committee gave them a phd to go away is automatically assumed to be a great manager and great at budgeting projects, worthy of a multiyear contract with hard funding for their own support staff, and, of course, significantly more money and job security. we're talking people under 40 who can't open a fucking pdf, but get to pretend like such basic job skills aren't necessary for them because they live in a palace of the mind. so they chew up and spit out underpaid staff to learn and do all the shit they can't be bothered to figure out.
one would imagine that, with the oversupply of graduate degrees compared to tenure tracked positions and the absolute glacial pageantry of hiring someone into a TT position, that they might be able to weed out the most useless assholes. but no. it's a coin toss as to whether they get a normal person or a toxic smooth brain.
Absolutely, and thank you for sharing your experience. It tracks perfectly with my understanding and experiences as well.
Also, a great point about staff, including soft money faculty / staff, being more competent than so many tenure-track folks but getting screwed by prestige shit. Universities are deeply corrupted by prestige-chasing, itself definitely tied up in the market to attract "the best" (often: the richest) students so that they can further finance a bunch of shit like big fancy buildings nobody asked for.
I am more than aware, when the KoomGB come for me I will go willingly
edit: "come for me" lmao
A few years ago I was told many times that Dr. Professor :jordan-eboy-peterson: was totally nonpolitical and just wanted people to improve themselves. :brainworms:
I also heard almost the exact same thing about TheRedPill, go figure.
It's wild how many of these dudes actually exist and think like that. "Hey I'm not that bad looking imo, so I should be with someone who I find attractive. By the way my entire view of what is attractive was formed by anime and video games and movies. So if I can't date Margot Robbie, then I'd rather just be alone. There's no way I'm overestimating my own attractiveness. Besides, I make a lot of money. Women will date anyone with money, the website full of people exactly like me said so."
You don't even have to be that attractive. We'll lower our aesthetic standards for a dude who's not a piece of shit.
Weird, it's almost like... A multifaceted relationship between human beings? Idk about that, Papa Peterson says I just need to find a sexy fuckpet to bully into domestic labor.
Negotiating sexy fuckpet time requires a certain degree of trust and humility.
The really difficult part is being interesting and fun to be around I think, you can be a fine person and also none of those. Introvert males have a problem, they just need to deal with it and personally I think they should simply hear a lot more often that it is okay to be alone. Personally I only feel like I'm fun when I'm half in the bag and I can't be drunk all the time.
Eh, for most people it's kind of a facade. They play up that they're super interesting and multifaceted, and then when they settle in spend most of their time eating unseasoned chicken at home and going to brunch or church or whatever.
I think as a society we need to lay off the idea of expecting people to entertain you. Obviously there is some degree of "you should have a life outside of trying to meet your waifu." But especially now as the veil of capitalism is falling, you get the impression more people would learn to value trust and communication.
Agree. I'm sure I was entertaining for my partner on our first months of dating, but now that we've dated for years I realize how boring I am. I'm not super talkative when we're hanging out together at our place, but I love it regardless.
they should simply hear a lot more often that it is okay to be alone.
You know it's not tho.
it is though. there's nothing wrong with living alone and not having a romantic partner.
Being alone and living alone with no partner are two different things. Isolation is a poison, but companionship doesn't have to take the specific form of romance or cohabitation.
I didn't think you were, and I'm not trying to say that anyone's inability to access what they want want in life - such as a nuclear family - isn't a real problem for them. I'm a noob who hasn't looked at your profile, so I haven't read about your situation.
What I'm talking about is more specific to incel culture. They push each other to seek out women, as well as to hate them. If unsuccessful, the blame falls on the targeted woman. If successful, a toxic household is achieved 🎉
This probably doesn't apply to you or your situation, but in the context of Jordan Peterson I think that a vital piece of keeping the fans lonely and hurting is to tie their self-worth to romantic relationships.
I’m a noob who hasn’t looked at your profile, so I haven’t read about your situation.
That is fair & I have probably been to hostile to you & some others in this thread.
What I think is that I need to stop engaging with these kinds of posts & the threads that they spawn because all they do is make me self-conscious & mad at people.
That's okay, it happens. This subject's a really gnarly one in the first place.
Speaking as someone who sometimes-successfully tries to avoid particular topics, there are times when it can be pretty helpful
you can just have friends the idea that the only meaningful relationships have to be romantic is a big part of why these people are the way that they are
you know what some of mine yeah I'd be confident in that to an extent. There's also family of course.
Romantic partners can't always be relied upon completely as well
of course if you and your friends and family take the view that the only meaningful relationships are romantic then that's something of a self fulfilling prophecy isn't it as you'll proceed to prioritise your romantic relationships over all others
well that doesn't work as romantic partners are often your own age. It's not like everyone can physically have kids either.
Plus I've known guys who's wife left as soon as things got tough and vice versa
I get angry when I believe people want to hurt me, or keep me isolated.
I don't want to do either if anything I think the idea that romantic relationships are the only ones puts too much pressure on them causing them to be unduly strained.
women aren't a monolith either what interests one woman won't interest another it's almost like romance and human relationships are complicated
Wonder why people don't want to be friends with this guy, he sounds great
He could probably make friends if he was willing to hang out with people who were obese or very unattractive.
It sucks that Jordan Peterson types speak to a very real alienation and emotional turmoil of men. These guys correctly identify their pain and give them the worst possible mental frameworks and philosophical equipment to deal with it. It’s funny but it’s also hella sad.
Society already caters to them in every conceivable way besides state sponsered gfs lol
Dark joke aside, there is a good opportunity for nontoxic dudes like Hasan to make orgs and shit. Idk not a guy so not my problem
I know I probably could if I was willing to date an obese woman or just someone very unattractive. But I would rather be alone.
Weapons-grade copium
holy fuck you just said you make a lot of money, go to therapy you whiny entitled fuck
Talking about your emotional wellbeing and the issues you face in life helps everyone.
Literally everyone.
For actual psych shit though, see a psychologist/psychiatrist.
I mean yah, but if you’re this far down a depression spiral, mental healthcare is a pretty good idea
I don't know a close relative of mine went to therapy and didn't get much out of it. On the other hand they were pretty mentally healthy to begin with so it's not like it's a huge failure.
I think it works for some people but not others
For people who don't have a specific problem to talk about, it really depends on the therapist.
Also for people who DO have a specific problem to talk about, it really depends on the therapist
Doesn't need to be a therapist.
Could be a significant other, family member, etc.
Ha. Someone I know who went to therapy, was given a Jordan Peterson book. Hahaha.
:doubt:
but also the american medical system is universally garbage so :shrug-outta-hecks:
