Putin goes on to say
”Our proposal is not to freeze the conflict, like how the west wants it, but to end it. I repeat, this is not to freeze the conflict, but for its final completion.”
I mean they are demands. You make demands when you have overwhelmingly dominated your opponent, which Russia has.
Russia is preparing for war with NATO. This is most likely Putins final public proposal for peace so the world can see Russia is not the aggressor in this situation. Everyone knows they’re making gains on the battlefield and the US has already publicly stated Ukraine won’t be a part of nato. So what is there to really fight about other than upholding Americas honor?
The screaming liberals are always making up a new reason to not accept anything. You tell them this is reasonable and they clap back with how Putin can't be trusted because they broke the commitment to sovereignty made when they gave up their nukes. The fact that the minsk agreements were broken first doesn't matter to them.
The problem with debating liberals is that you’re trying to use truth and reality against people that care about neither of those things
You’re right, but that doesn’t really matter because the only step other than publicly announcing a peace agreement is to end all life on the planet.
You uh
You wanna expand on that or are you going to pretend you got an epic mic drop own
Because I have no fucking clue what you're trying to say
No mic drop intended, just replying fast to a few people.
I guess before I figure out which way to expand on it I need a baseline, do you believe history will look fondly on Putin?
No, I don't. He represents the worst of the collapse of the Soviet Union. He runs a staunchly conservative, queerphobic nation that's put a number of my friends in real material danger simply for existing, and they can scarcely tell me about it because of how tightly the state cracks down on that
How history will view him depends on how the war shakes out and who you're asking and why. He's been a leader - or around the reins of power - for a very long time, and I don't see him as innocent or blameless in the events that bring us to the invasion. This was a collision thirty odd years in the making, and Great Man Theory fucking sucks as an analysis of history
This doesn't just have to do with Putin, there is no reality where any Russian president would accept Ukraine joining NATO. That has been clear since the fall of the Soviet Union.
true, Russia could have elected Karl Marx or Jesus Christ or Taylor Swift as president and they would still have responded to american provocation in similar ways. Putin is a conservative, homophobic oligarch, but just about anyone else in that position would have responded similarly to the threat of NATO nukes on their border and nazis ethnically cleansing speakers of their language. If Mexico decided to join BRICS and host Chinese nukes and militias started massacring english-speakers and anyone with american citizenship or ancestry, we would go full Iraq Invasion style and turn the entire country into rubble and irradiated craters and corpses, meanwhile Russia waited like 2 years after invading to even start targeting the electrical grid and other infrastructure.
I'm not great at geography, so when I recently saw a map that showed how some of the Western missiles could reach Moscow from Ukrainian territory...that was when it really hit me how Ukraine potentially joining NATO is basically the Cuban missile crisis except much worse for Russia. Yeah, make fun of me all you want for not taking the time to really look at a map.
yea i've had people be like 'we can hit them with nukes from anywhere why does ukraine matter' but like having 20 or 30 minutes to detect an incoming ICBM from the ocean (to maybe shoot it down/knock it off course or get everyone into bunkers to launch your own counterattack) is a much better situation in terms of deterrence than having 5 minutes to maybe detect a launch from concealed/rough terrain and have just enough time to let everyone in the nuclear command center/capital city know they are going to die (missile nerds correct me if i'm oversimplifying, ICBMs at long range need to reach near-orbit heights in their flights whereas closer range missiles can be launched to fly somewhat closer to the ground in ways harder to detect with radar or intercept with missiles of your own)
I think it also has to do with Ukraine being the perfect pathway for a land invasion as well.
Whether or not any Russian president would have accepted it doesn't justify invading another country with the intent of claiming the land as their own, nor does it make them any less of the aggressor.
You seem to be giving a green light to invade to every NATO-aligned state, including Ukraine. But hey, prove me wrong and tell us how every state that invaded, for example, Iraq and Afghanistan should answer for their crimes.
But no, if the gang of states that keep invading everywhere around the world and killing millions are encroaching on your borders after promising to not expand towards you, you have a reason to act against them.
Also, care to tell us what makes you qualified to tell the rest of the world how it should resist you?
Turns out that diplomacy doesn't work like "we are the USA and we will dictate the terms always and forever", it was only a matter of time before someone put their foot down.
That's not a moral judgement, that's just how shit happens.
Including more history is not justification but to explain why things happen. Wtf is wrong with liberals?
It's like explaining to a child how babies are made and they go "no actually babies just appear out of nowhere" lmao
The problem with informing yourself with mainstream media. Its like putin just decided to invade ukraine that morning. And he is a crazy evil dictator etc
No one said he decided that morning, just that he initiated a war.
- Show
In 2014 a bunch of Ukrainian nazis couped the democratically elected government and started ethnically cleansing the Russian population in the Donbas. Some sections of the Ukrainian military rebelled and formed militia units to protect the population from being murdered by nazis, leading to a low level civil war stretching on for years. Ukrainian nazi paramilitaries continued persecuting ethnic Russian Ukrainians civilians as well as shelling Donetsk and Lugansk
During this time Russia tried repeatedly to conduct diplomacy with the nazis western handlers, the US and the UK, as well as interested third parties such as Germany and France. However, it was pointless as the US never intended to back down and continuously goaded the Ukrainian nazis into attacks on the Donbas, all the while supplying them with money and weapons. When the war seemed to be escalating to the point NATO forces might join in, Russia - understanding that any actual direct combat between Russian and NATO soldiers would lead to a global nuclear holocaust - jumped in with its troops first... after spending three days voting to formally recognize the independence of the DPR and LPR, of course, because Putin is a bureaucrat to the core and these things must be done properly.
And now, the people of Donetsk and Luhansk can live quietly without fear of nazi missiles blowing up their city centers for no reason.
And now, the people of Donetsk and Luhansk can live quietly without fear of nazi missiles blowing up their city centers for no reason.
This part's not actually true yet.
No, you're right, the US keeps delivering longer-ranged missiles so the nazi terrorism can continue.
Cause they didn't start the 2014 Ukranian Civil War, they're just finishing it?
no sassy one-line reply to your comment :( damn i was looking for some entertainment
If I invent an imaginary gun in your hand when there was none and attack you, who is the aggressor?
Good to know the Eastern Ukrainians getting shelled in their homes for almost a full decade are imaginary
Boy, would my face have been red if I had been supporting Nazis carrying out an ethnic cleansing in those regions
Glad it was just Kremlin propaganda and epic smol bean Ukraine isn't a reactionary shithole throwing an entire generation into a meat grinder war for no good reason
That is a whole different topic than the thread you're replying to which is about Russia starting this invasion as the aggressors.
If you want to discuss the conflict in eastern Ukraine, we can, but don't start by getting snarky about some imagined argument that exists only in your mind.
It is absolutely not a "whole different topic". Why are you liberals so afraid of historical context?
Oh that's right, because it demolishes your delusional view of the world.
But the conflict in Eastern Ukraine is one of the main inciting incidents of the war.
This is like saying we can't bring up the Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand in a discussion or why Austria-Hungry invaded Serbia.
There's nothing imaginary about a hostile nuclear power on your border. That is a gun to your head. The US did not allow it in Cuba. Russia will not allow it in Ukraine.
(What's a good US equivalent to Yugoslavia?)
Indonesia?
NATO missiles are imaginary? Damn that takes a lot of stress off me.
wow so many russian shills responding to this! Guess you don't like to get your echo chamber disturbed
Russia started the war because the west wants influence over Ukraine, which is existential for Russia. This is something the United States and NATO are already aware of, so the real question is why would nato take an aggressive posture in Ukraine knowing they cannot win a war?
The a in usa stands for aggressor
usa is always the aggressor
They started hundreds of wars, this one included
https://twitter.com/RealScottRitter/status/1778355370416603236?t=5aqmxygsonIsjtjTLe1ADw&s=19
Sounda reasonable considering all the situation but western MIC oligarchs won't let Ukraine take that deal100%
This isn't reasonable, this is crazily generous, especially considering the state of the war. Only thing Ukraine lose is places that already publicly stated they don't want to be in Ukraine. But in that proposition they don't lose Odessa and with it the Black Sea access, they don't lose Kharkov, they stay as viable state instead of rump remains, they don't have to denazify, they won't have to change government, and the most importantly, killing stops now.
Yeah, no chance their handlers will allow them to agree.
I haven't kept up with shit in Ukraine well the past few months but this was my uneducated, gut reaction as well. Seems super reasonable.
Of course, they won't be going for it since their donors won't let them.
Definitely a reasonable point to start negotiations. The Russians barely hold anything in Kherson, but you don't start where you want. Otherwise, you don't have any leeway in negotiations.
I was honestly surprised.
Ukraine will end up with worse terms though, since they will reject these.
I'm not that up to date, so I would like to ask other people: why now? Has Russia decided that the war is too costly to be worthwhile continuing, or does Putin expect that he has demonstrated that Ukraine could never win a war against Russia? I know he's proposed private peace deals, and I imagine they had similar terms.
Either way, I really doubt Zelesky will accept peace. This war has been way to beneficial for America. They've bought up public Ukranian assets, blown up the Nord Stream, made a shit load of money selling arms, cultivated massively successful propaganda, made Europe way more dependant on them, and so on. Zelesky would probably be being paid a visit from the men in black if he accepted this deal.
They’ve probably been offering this deal privately for more than a year now. I guess at this point they feel it’s been long enough to demonstrate that Ukraine can’t kick them out even with NATO weapons. They’re making the offer public to put pressure on Zelenskyy and make him seem less reasonable with his completely unrealistic hard position of pre-2014 borders.
How well it will work I don’t know.
public proposal to cut through the narratives they're spinning in Kiev, i imagine the expectation is that Ukrainians & especially conscripts will hear 'lose the troublesome provinces for peace' and rally to pressure the government. for Russia, a withdrawal of Ukraine's troops will achieve what would probably take months in terms of territory, despite the 'Ukraine is collapsing' hype Russia hasn't exactly been making rapid progress
my best guess would be that this weekend is the swiss peace summit where they invited like ninety countries but not russia. putting out the barest, most basic sounding demands is an easy play when you aren’t even invited to the current version of peace talks. it’ll make ukraine’s demands for crimea, belgorod, kaliningrad, and billion dollar annual reparations look ridiculous in a few days, if the talks even get that far. you’re right that the west isn’t done, but the west is the one cooking up this swiss conference
The Shitwinds are blowing and you know what that means?
A Shitstorm is on the way
Wait Ukraine wants Kalingrad? Shouldn't that exclave either stay with Russia or go to Poland?
The real reason is the west has given Russia every reason to believe they’re about to be hit with a nuclear bomb at any given moment. This isn’t really Russia changing their strategy or anything, I see this as more about Russia openly declaring they would rather have peace than nuclear war one last time.
My uneducated guess? Putin has seen better polling then what’s made people public and figures that he better get going on a deal now because he doesn’t think the November elections are going to go his way.
I think this is just about setting the legal precedent, make sure that there are official negotiations more recent than April '22. This refusal will certainly be referenced in the future when they will make further demands using this as a justification i.e you had the chance, you refused and caused even more harm, therefore we are in our right to demand further compensation.
There are also other factors to consider, the situation for Ukrainian civilians is getting worse, electricity is almost completely out and it is going to get much worse. Putting an official record that Russia is willing to end the war now is certainly going to affect a significant part of the population.
Obviously its not like stupid democracy shit is real at all, they're not going to protest their way into a peace deal with Russia, but this can lead to civil unrest which means even less manpower which just ultimately means Russia continues to steamroll.
How DARE Putler™ reiterate the ceasefire conditions that haven't changed since the start of the conflict!
So what would this mean for those four regions? Fully subsumed into Russia? Becoming an independent country but identifying as ethnically Russian? Staying Ukrainian but granted some sort of semi-autonomous status?
iirc DPR and LPR are already part of Russia, they would need to do new paperwork on Kherson and Zapo though
EDIT: I did not recall correctly
iirc The DPR and LPR joined Russia the same day as Kherson and Zaporozhye.
ah ok this is the sep 30 2022 action, I was thinking of the legal moves they did before the invasion. I'll have to go back and read the MoA article to figure out what the distinction is
The only change mentioned is that they will have troops withdrawn, so I don't know if Putin is even looking for any territorial changes. Maybe he'll expect recognition of a plebiscite after the troops are withdrawn, maybe the territories will remain a part of Ukraine. I doubt anyone wants for them to form a nation.
my vibes-based reading:
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this is in response to the peace conference (the one russia isn't invited to lol), not any major shifts on the battlefield or in the geopolitical situation
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the target audience is the ukrainian public, not the ukrainian/western leadership
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the russian government knows there's no chance ukraine is willing (or able) to accept this ceasefire proposal. that doesn't necessarily mean they're not prepared to follow through should ukraine agree, but the extremely generous terms they're presenting here are probably based on the assumption that ukraine will immediately reject it.
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when ukraine is eventually forced to the negotiation table, the russian proposal will be far less generous.
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of course this very reasonable list will be framed as evil putler's ravings 😈
Ukraine will never ever ever ever accept the peace deal, nope, will never happen, we will also never solve climate change ever, ever, ever, Palestine will never be free either ever, never, nope, everything is completely hopeless and we will never achieve communism
I have a general policy of predicting the opposite of what I want since I think the universe functions contrary to my own predictions specifically cuz I'm the main character.
Ukraine and their backers aren't capable of agreeing to this, they're just too deep in the fantasy. The only reason I can think of for making this declaration again, which is really just a call for Ukraine to recognize the current reality of the situation, is for posterity.
A last off ramp before the Russians commit more and then demand more for resolution. It could only be a matter of time before Russia insists on Kharkiv oblast as a response to the terror bombing of civilians in Belgorod.
Has the victorious army ever just given up and returned to its land without any wins or concessions? Has this ever happened in history? Amazing that libs want Putin to just forfeit when he’s one move away from checkmate, like why would he do that?
Has the victorious army ever just given up and returned to its land without any wins or concessions?
Yes, and actually even worse, they allied with the enemy they nearly completely defeated, and it was unfortunately Russian army, in 1762. In retrospect, that move by Peter III was one of the worst moronic mistakes in history of Europe which consequences are still being felt. Hope Russia remembers that.
Nice try Pulter, the walls are closing in and ur desperate. The RuZZan army will collapse as we send a battalion of 70 year old conscripts we kidnapped from a retirement village to capture Moscow. We have enough adult diapers to last them weeks.
People when the literal last Ukrainian is hiding in a shelter dressed in army gear with boots kicking down the door: Nooooo, we have them on the ropes!
