It's trendy these days to be anti colonialism, but as soon as you mention ireland all the support fizzles out. Fucks up with that? Most young people hate tories, hate british empire, etc etc, but then you say IRA and everyone gets scared. It's not even like my generation has an emotional attachment to it either - it's before our time
pahahaha that's quality I'm gonna pull that on the next person that tries me
Belfastian here, I got downvoted on the subreddit for explaining this way back but I'm gonna try again. The reason alot of Irish people sneer at IRA Larping from Leftists of other countries is because no matter what your perspective the consensus is that having the IRA return would be bad. Even the most die hard Republican will admit that the IRA achieved what it set out to do: The Political means to achieve a United Ireland. The GFA has alot of issues, and the British like to forget it often (especially with Brexit) but if there was an actual large majority of people in NI right now who were willing to Vote Yes on a United Ireland right now it would happen. The main road to progress towards reunification right now is that the Troubles remain in living memory, as time passes and the ceasefire babies (me included) grow up the percentage willing to consider a UI has risen noticeably. Eventually, when the Troubles actually does become history, perspectives may change (Just as it did with the original IRA, who are now viewed fairly unanimously throughout Ireland as heroes, even though they did some pretty bad shit too). But for now vocally supporting any of the paramilitaries actions during the Troubles is simply encouraging the Them 'uns attitude that is the main barrier to not only reunification but also functioning politics in Northern Ireland.
In short, you say it's before our time, but I can still see the scars of the Troubles in my Parents and their generation. You can see it in our politicians, I grew up hearing about it constantly and witnessing the aftermath, about legacy trials and Paramilitary killings. If you live in Northern Ireland for any amount of time you'll see just how much of everything is tangled up in the Troubles still. And its painful to admit it, but it won't stop until I'm old and the previous generation is all gone, even then I imagine its legacy will still find ways to remain.
And I know this bit won't be popular among the very American Centric Chapos, but quite frankly I'm okay with having it be forgotten. It's affected so much of my life without having even being alive during it that I honestly just want the whole sad mess left to the history books. I can only imagine that those who were alive during it feel it even more strongly. People can glorify the IRA all they want but I'm done wasting my life on the ghosts of the past.
TLDR: It's too soon
P.S. Also wanted to add on that the reason the both sides-ism that permeates NI is bullshit isn't cause the IRA were saints but because One side was a group of civillian paramilitaries and one side was a state government that actively encouraged and extended the Troubles and then continues to coverup and protect their war crimes and criminals.
P.P.S. Because this has got me all riled up now I'm gonna also add in this. If you want an example of how pervasive the hold the Troubles still has on Northern Ireland then take Trans Rights as an example. Northern Ireland didn't even hold a consultancy on the GRA reform like every other UK country did, and quite frankly trans rights are just barely coming onto the radar of our politicians. The Gender Identity Clinic in Northern Ireland (As in the only one) stopped accepting patients for 2 years and may still not be as far as I know. Why is this? FIrst of all, because the Troubles and the ensuing peace process (which is still ongoing, we didn't have an assembly for almost 2 years again because we still haven't enacted the Irish Language Act, Something that was promised in the GFA over 20 years ago) stagnated the entire political landscape of NI for some 50 years, so we only got Gay Marriage this year because Westminister forced us to, You know shits bad when the English have to vote for Gay Marriage for you. Secondly is the DUP, who are bigots who still control the majority vote. Why? Because they prey upon the legacy of the Troubles to command the Unionist vote. Their core voter base is those Unionists who lived through the Troubles that will vote for a Unionist party no matter what there politics. Theres actually even more I could go into on this, but see how long this has gotten already? About something as completely unrelated to The Troubles as Trans Rights?
Bro i'm also a dumbass from texas but I really appreciate your thoughtful (and frankly, personal) answer. I had never considered ireland was still tangled in the fallout of the Troubles, and i can't help thinking I've missed the nuances of the situation from my outsider perspective.
Do you have any good, comprehensive resources on the issue? I would love to read and learn more.
Two very good but very harrowing books would be Children of The Troubles by Joe Duffy and Freya Clements and Lost Lives by by Chris Thornton, Seamus Kelters, Brian Feeney , David McKittrick. Children of The Troubles tells the stories of some of the 180 odd children killed during the troubles through interviews, and Lost Lives provides a incredibly comprehensive account of the deaths throughout the Troubles that paints the broad picture of the whole conflict. One of the main things growing up and still to this day was hearing every few weeks on the news about another "Legacy" case about some poor family looking for closure on a family member who turned up in a bog or just straight up disappeared 30-40 years ago and never recovered from it.
Most people outside of Ireland, even those who know Irish people, often don't realise it because of how, growing up in Northern Ireland, much of it is unspoken, taken-for-granted, knowledge that you don't really need to talk about because everyone already knows it. Which results in alot of outsiders simply never hearing about it. (This applies less to Americans and more to people of the UK, who you would think should know a bit about the country right across from them)
I’m just a dumbass from Texas, but that is actually a super interesting perspective. Thank you for sharing
I absolutely disagree that the current state of Northern Ireland is what the rank and file of the IRA killed and died to achieve. Your PPS shows exactly why the armed conflict concluded in abject failure, distilled in the form of the Good Friday Agreement. The GFA, whose resulting Northern Ireland Assembly is permanently teetering on the brink of collapse, with the prospect of a return to direct rule from London ever present?
Did all those people have to die and waste their lives in prison for a toothless regional assembly that is even more of a concession to British rule than the Sunningdale Agreement from a full 25 years earlier? What a waste. Don't forget that the Assembly is at its foundation a sectarian establishment - members upon joining the assembly must designate themselves as unionist or nationalist. United Ireland, indeed!
Speaking of which, I have really strong doubts that a united Ireland would be voted for now, or any time soon. Whatever they're worth, polls indicate that is a long way off.
The British, experienced colonisers that they are were smart enough to encourage a strong, educated Catholic middle class during the Troubles, by pumping billions of pounds into NI and building a relatively strong economy compared to the Republic of Ireland. The cultivation of this Catholic bourgeois, deeply entwined with the legal and security apparatus of the British state has resulted in a population, who unlike their forbears, do not have much interest at all in a united Ireland and are quite happy with their lot, thank you very much. Their allegiance is to the status quo. And with the absence of any class-conscious politics whatsoever, the working class are left adrift as always.
So, apart from 30 years of armed conflict resulting in a failed political agreement that is as far from a United Ireland as ever...another reason to not idolise the IRA is that they were absolutely and thoroughly infiltrated by British intelligence. One must conclude that their military campaign was a complete failure that achieved little beyond enriching their political leadership .
As has been said before elsewhere, polls like that are misleading. "Would you support Irish Unification if a referendum was held tommorow" is not indicative of how the actual scenario would work. As for the political stagnation, it had to happen eventually, there was always going to be a fallout period after the conflict ended. I don't think you can really decry it as dysfunctional until we see what the generation of politicians after the current ones are like, who were not directly involved and affected by The Troubles.
Secondly, I have no idea what planet your on if you'd call NI's economy "strong" especially compared to the Republics. The UK's pumped billions of pounds into this country to keep it from basically collapsing in on itself after, unsurprisingly, 30 years of civil war kinda stunted economical growth.
The GFA's a ramshackle thing but armed conflict could only bring the reunification cause so far and the IRA knew that. Who knows what might've been, but all we know for sure is the actions of the IRA caused the GFA, and the GFA allows for a Unified Ireland. Polls should always be taken with a pinch of salt but most of them have shown a consistent rise in the willingness to consider a United Ireland among the Ceasefire Generations as time goes on, and I'm confident that given time we'll reach a state were a large majority will be willing to consider reunification not on the basis of national identities, but on the actual benefits of reunification. I'm sure you've noticed just as I have the increase of centralists and unionists who, thanks to Brexit, have said they would consider it based on the actual benefits. Once the Tories dissassemble the NHS once and for all it will drive even more people towards it.
Because if theres one thing thats certain, its that the English will keep fucking over Northern Ireland until eventually enough people will be pushed towards reunification.
At the height of the troubles and well into the 1990's (pre celtic tiger), the North was a significantly stronger economy than the Republic. They did not suffer the same levels of mass emmigration during the 1980's.
Artificially so, for sure. That's the point. That's when a complacent, Catholic middle-class was nurtured by the British. A generation who thought less of a united ireland and more about a solid job working for the state. Their children's generation thinks even less so of a united ireland.
What exactly is the current political movement towards a united ireland? What form does their activism take?
I don't know what to tell you other than as a child of that said generation, I think you're somewhat misinformed. Anecdotally speaking I dont know a single person who fits that description that isn't on board with a United Ireland. The Troubles bred apathy, yes, but I would never say complacency. The issue of the modern Irish middle class is brain drain. People leaving to find better work in other countries, which has the side affect of them becoming somewhat disconnected from Northern Irish politics.
as a child of that said generation
Me too :) As I write this in a land far from home, having grown up with fellow children of professional catholics, I can easily tell the opposite story. The notion of a United Ireland just isn't something that's taken seriously by my cohort. We can compare anecdotes all day and polling data may be flawed, but the depressing reality is that only 25% of us consider ourselves nationalist and 40% are neither. Sure those labels may be stigmatised by recent history, but the signs are not pointing in the right direction.
It's all moot though. The Republic wouldn't take us anyway!
Everyone's been poisoned by the idea of non-violence and the important details of the IRA's struggle, like that they were working hard to minimize casualties while MI6 used Nazi proxies to push a program of maximum collateral damage and maximum sectarian bloodshed, have been obscured by thirty years of "both sides"
https://www.spin.com/featured/inside-the-ira-spins-1994-feature/ this is a really good, unbiased article that goes into the late IRA's response to calls for peace as well as how their structure worked as a whole. This is specifically about the war in NI though, and not the bombings in England, though it talks about why they went to such a strict recruiting process.
Read Rebel Hearts, it's a good book on the ira. Lots of interviews with members.
I’ve seen tons of young leftists make IRA posts on tiktok so I’m not that sure what you’re talking about
Yeah but that's cos the algorithm found you. They're a small portion. Of people I know IRL, people know fuck all about it except IRA scary.
I'm a millennial and I like the IRA.
People agree with me most of the time, but I sometimes wonder if that's simply because they want me to stop ranting.
Yeah I mean it's hard not to agree with you - it's one of those issues where the Brits are so clearly in the wrong if you just mention how we've been over there pillaging and raping for over a hundred years.
Still though, so far the best I've managed is for them to say 'both sides' which makes me want to tear my cock and balls off.
Because literally nobody in the UK outside of Ireland knows ANYTHING about the IRA, what the situation was about, or what the history of the UK's relationship with "Northern Ireland" is.
I've been thinking lately about what movement could get off the ground however in a post-UK world. When it is just England. And I have come to the conclusion that when the UK is gone and the queen has finally popped her clogs you could start an English Republican movement with the single-issue goal of abolishing the monarchy and forming the English Republic.
You could ride up on English nationalism with this while also teaching the population what a republic is. It will be riding off the back of every nation of the UK moving toward self governance and independent self-rule. The English will be feeling it themselves too. You could take hold of those independence energies to give the English independence from monarchal rule and push for something very very cool in that kind of landscape.
Single-issue parties are also the only kinds of things that seem to grow and work within the UK outside of the 2 party landscape. All of this hinges on Elizabeth being in the ground first of course because you're never going to get the English against the monarchy until its a dick like Charles in charge that they don't like. She's part of the furniture and you can't move on the issue until she's gone.
Yes... And no. Nationalism in England is a hotmess and really isn't very attached to monarchy but to "being english". It isn't dogma so with the right circumstances you could decouple the monarchy and the notion of the english nation. The barriers are:
- People don't think the monarchy has any power.
- People don't dislike Elizabeth.
- People think the monarchy makes the country money.
All of these you can attack but there's no appetite for it while Liz is still around. That will change when there's a male ruler. I believe that patriarchal attitudes make people feel like the queen is less of a "ruler" than they will feel when we have a king. There will be more discomfort to tap into over a male ruler than over a sweet old lady.
Additionally, I would assume some part of the nationalist ideology involves the colonial nature of the UK and since were talking specially about the English, English supremacy.
This is why the culmination of the true end of the British empire plays into this. Right now forces are underway to see Scotland leave the union followed by the part of Ireland that shouldn't be in it, Welsh independence has begun building now too. The splintering of the UK will force the English to finally forgo their colonial past and seek a new conception of English identity.
I also have a notion that the social forces under way that have led to the loss of the empire aren't finished. The TRUE end of the British empire isn't the end British global power and the loss of its colonies, nor is it even the loss of the UK, the TRUE end of the empire is the end of the monarchy itself. The final eventual culmination of something that has been happening to the UK for the last couple hundred years.
English nationalism can just as easily be turned into something good. The north of England is not a bad place, it has wonderful people and there is good class consciousness there where you could create proletarian-nationalism in the above conditions. Parts of the south too with their own identities (the Cornish) would also have proletarian-nationalism you can tap into.
You're absolutely right that bourgeoise-nationalism exists among the English but in the dying stages of an empire you can redirect that into more positive proletarian-nationalism with the help of the 20-30% or so socialist base that currently exists.
I would just say Republic of England. Easy enough to turn English self determination into proletarian-nationalism. The energy is there it just requires the right conditions. I'm not nearly as pessimistic about the English as others here, they're rough around the edges and they're a mess of colonial mindsets but a conversation with the average English working class that supports Brexit doesn't reveal a complete monster. It mostly reveals someone that's rather ignorant about a lot of social issues, gets misled by the right wing on those issues but honestly has a "I don't care what anyone does to be honest as long as it doesn't affect me" attitude and really isn't loyal to reactionary mindsets. They aren't people that will go to war over anything.
The only thing I truly think is necessary to detach those people from the right wing is to properly attach the wealthy and the right wing mediasphere that is mis-directing them into reactionary thought on issues.
Yes we've got our tommy robinson types but they're not a large crowd and the people that supported Brexit aren't loyal followers of unhinged right wing beliefs. I'd say there's only a 2-5% crowd of true believers, the rest or misguided and simply rough proletarians that can be realigned if we cut the umbilical cord feeding them shit. They don't even really believe what they're being fed by the right wing machine, they just have a defensive wall up because they've heard that trans people are dangerous weirdos or that immigrants want their jobs or whatever. They actually don't give a fuck what trans people or anything else do as long as they're left alone -- it's entirely the fact that the right wing is feeding them stuff that they even have any concerns about it, and their only concern is "stay out of my life". I believe they're all, deep down, "I just want to grill" types who have a constant trickle of shite scaring them.
Welsh movement is building through: https://www.yes.cymru/
The Irish movement is a continuation of the struggle of the IRA and Sinn Fein. They'll get there eventually when something occurs to split the unionists. The left has made massive gains in NI and the momentum continues to be towards reunification. Unionists hold about 42% of the vote and Reunification parties (Sinn Fein and SDLP) hold about 38%, the remaining parties are "neutral" on the union.
It was still slowing moving more and more towards independence over time but Brexit really kicked it into high gear. It accelerated all the existing independence movements and I would argue it created the Welsh one.
Strongly recommend following Paul Morrin if you want to follow a good Irish comrade. Here's his video on nationalism and why it's good when it's the right type of nationalism .
I'm a zoomer and I like the IRA because they helped the ANC and the general anti apartheid resistance movement with tactics (the idea to do public bombings didn't come out of nowhere) and other material assistance.
Well for starters, the modern IRA lead an extended and disastrous military campaign. Its leadership has sold out those early goals of a united, socialist Ireland. Instead, 30 years of war gave us little more than their political wing engaging in regional, bourgeois politics, now firmly embedded in the capitalist ruling class.
Let's not forget that the IRA was infiltrated from top , to bottom by British intelligence.
A fair argument could be made that in the late 1960's there was little choice but to engage in armed struggle, especially for those communities feeling the brunt of what was not too far from an apartheid state. But, let's not romaticise how things have gone from then and what little has been achieved by all of those sacrifices.
You'd find a lot of people would agree with socialism and a united Ireland. IRA name is aasociated with a complicated history with violence. Good place to comment there is that occupation is violence and people have a right to defend themselves.
ik this post isn't about ireland itself but the cognitive dissonance among self-declared-left-wing protestant-raised gen z (and i assume also other generations) in ulster is genuinely unreal it's almost laughable. i do understand opposition to the ira, especially from people who don't know a lot about its origins and the british violence it was reacting to (honestly the early ira was good but the ira of the troubles does deserve a LOT of criticism), bc the wounds are so fresh, & i don't really expect people to support them
but the way they manage to justify opposition to irish republicanism in general is unbelievable
i'm from a hardcore loyalist area where people think even considering yourself irish, let alone supporting violence, is borderline terrorism, and i know socialists who say acab, are supposedly anti-racist, would never even consider supporting british colonialism elsewhere, etc., but tie themselves in knots to support the settler colonialist 'state' that is the north of ireland
i don't get it at all because it isn't even from a place of ignorance, they are aware that it is a settler state etc. and they understand that as white people they're oppressors of other races. but they seem to think that in ireland they're somehow equally oppressed. i think it's because as the first post-good friday agreement generation we were raised not to see each other as enemies, but it's contributed to this sense that the troubles developed out of nowhere and that neither side is more culpable than the other. there's also a huge #BothSides type thing that says that loyalists and republicans were Equally Bad and that we should all just forget about everything that happened and sing kumbaya together (although of course while continuing to uphold the colonial status quo!) which is very funny because the people who say this usually also (rightfully) oppose all lives matter. recently a girl i know who would (again rightfully) be outraged if somebody downplayed racism said 'literally only catholics care about sectarianism' hmmmm damn that's crazy i wonder why??? like i get it from actual right-wingers but i just can't comprehend the thought process involved in saying that but understanding the concept of oppression
also this is tangential and like i'm willing to admit i'm wrong on this but i don't really believe in the concept of mutual 'sectarianism' like a) irish republicanism has never been exclusively catholic, many of the early revolutionaries (wolfe tone, the young irelanders, etc) were presbyterian and b) none of it has never even been about religion on our side, like i'm sure there are a handful of old people who think protestants are godless heathens or whatever but 'protestant' is just a synonym for 'unionist' (bc pretty much all unionists were protestant and vice versa) and the focus on catholicism was just because almost all irish people were catholic. idk it just seems insane, like as if white settlers in south africa managed to convince everyone that their racism and a black south african opposing that racism are the same thing
sorry this ended up being very long and unorganised. tl;dr deep ulster is a hellhole
Wasn't there legal discrimination against Catholics in NI before/during The Troubles?
The destruction of r/me_ira and it's consequences has been a disaster for the human race.
civil disobedience and peaceful protest have really been indoctrinated into the minds of most people. A lot of folks I know shake their head at the idea of violence.
A lot of people just don't understand that the status quo is violent. The protests against police are changing that perception though, slowly but surely.
Oh yeah, for a lot of people who are comfortable and have never been beaten my police, the idea of violent self-defense feels extreme. But when you are constantly patrolled by racist cops, the idea of officers being redacted and having breathing space in your neighborhood sounds fucking nice as hell.
Exactly, violence in response to institutional oppression is self defense and 100% unquestionably justified.
https://slate.com/technology/2020/09/ira-tiktok-ireland-troubles.html
https://www.irishcentral.com/news/tik-tok-teens-glorifying-provisional-ira
i mean
