Do any leftists actually support the US coup in Bolivia? Because if so that is incredibly cursed and CIA pilled
There were quite a few people online, who after the attempted coup in Venezuela, and to lesser extent the successful one in Bolivia, would handwring about Maduro and Morales:
"I don't support what happened in Venezuela, but let's not pretend Maduro is a good guy, or is implementing liberatory socialism. I oppose both the government and the opposition, and support the people in a bottom-up assertion of their power."
The problem with this is A) Speech is performative, and B) it's idealism. What I mean by the former is that, even if your position is honest, and even if it's the correct position, by doing anything other than voicing ardent opposition for the coup while it's happening you are giving it legitimacy (to the extent what anyone says online matters at all). You may say "Maduro is evil because he is not far enough left" but what a liberal hears is "Maduro is evil, so it's a moral imperative to get rid of him". You saw similar things about Soleimani after the airstrike; playing up how evil he was after stating that the U.S. was wrong to do this only justifies what the U.S. did.
The second problem, its being idealist: even if it'd be best if the people united in a grassroots manner, organised together, overthrew Maduro and imposed Anarcho-communism, even if that's the best idea, that doesn't mean that it's a currently extant force. What you might wish were there just doesn't exist in order to support; they are not a real party to this conflict, and so you end up opposing both existing sides and supporting a phantom.
I don't necessarily believe this is an Anarchist tendency, as the meme would imply. I think it's more likely a Twitter tendency, where you are pressured to have the "most correct" take, in order to be superior to and more nuanced than everyone else.
Yeah all it does is aid the US in manufacturing consent to invade or coup, no matter the actual intention, so it's very idealistic.
it’s very idealistic.
On the other hand, it is solidly materialist to argue that relatively small numbers of unorganized leftists who post something short of unequivocal support for the CPC or Maduro on twitter are a decisive force in the outcome of working class struggle.
Oviously tankielover69 on a message board has no effect on what actually happens, but the reality is that a US backed coup will almost always be worse than the current system if governance, no matter how legitimate the criticism of it is or how bad it is.
The problem is not critique itself, which can be very useful for a movement, but criticism from the outside that has almost no understanding of the dialectic internal to it, of the actual material conditions. Criticism of China, specifically, from U.S. outlets is particularly trash, and obviously has nothing to do with China as an actual place, or people¹. In order to make a useful critique, you must understand a place, it's inertia and trajectory, the difference between where it is and where it ought to be, and how to alter its trajectory. These things are hugely specific, even down to the individual communities and neighbourhoods.
- This also applies, largely, to praise of China, which is often detached and irrelevant, not coming from an understanding of the actual on-the-ground forces at work that produce certain results, and with no attempt to connect these to local conditions.
You're correct that materialist analysis has to be grounded in conditions as they concretely and actually exist, sure.
But when the stick is bent too far in the other direction, you get this basically anti-Marxist meme of "criticism from the outside," as if the world working class is not an international class within a global capitalist system. The idea that "western" socialists are somehow outside of the international working class is itself a rejection of proletarian internationalism, which is a bedrock principle of Marxism.
I think you may have misread me. I didn't make the statement "Criticism from the outside has no understanding of material conditions", but "Criticism from the outside that has no understanding of material conditions isn't useful or relevant."
Bolivia wasn't a coup because the Bolivian Supreme Court was Unconstitutional and the military actually had the power to remove the President under the Posse Comitatus Opposite Day Act of 1878.
Once Jeanine Áñez slapped a Bible on the President's desk and shouted "Base! No Takesies Backsides!" everything was Democratic again.
Lots of anarchists were saying that Evo had turned on the indigineous by pushing for further economic development in rural areas and they were happy to see him go.
I literally never saw any anarchists say this, and I'm getting really sick of people on this forum trying to blame anarchists for every possible bad opinion.
Wish I still had access to the chapo subreddit because I could share those posts.
So this didn't happen, huh?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchism/comments/dumdyp/what_exactly_is_going_on_in_bolivia/f775yai/
Or this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/COMPLETEANARCHY/comments/ddqbsp/socialism_going_really_well_in_bolivia/
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know that some comment that got 12 upvotes on a random anarchist forum that nobody here even likes was the official stance of all anarchists.
And all the top comments in your second link are complaining about it. Did you even read it?
Yeah, if you go around searching for bad opinions you're going to find them. The difference here is that anarchists aren't going around digging up random horrible takes by MLs in an attempt to discredit them, because we're not a bunch of infighting wreckers who want to seize power for exactly only our ideology.
"anarchists aren’t going around digging up random horrible takes by MLs " That is exactly my fucking problem with online anarchists, you make strawmen about "tankies" and use that as justification for repeating literal CIA propaganda verbatim. MLs push for left unity (or left solidarity) and anarchists can't even keep their criticism contained to left-only spaces, you go anywhere and "anarchists" dogpile anyone who expresses even a remotely ML opinion with the rest of the liberals. Thank god for real anarchists or I'd just write you all off as feds
"MLs push for left unity (or left solidarity)"
Yes, hence the post.
"and anarchists can’t even keep their criticism contained to left-only spaces"
Like Chapo.chat or reddit's anarchism forum? There was a circlejerk thread here about how this site has more users than raddle.
There was a circlejerk thread here about how this site has more users than raddle.
That was my doing. I'll own that, and I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings. It was more specifically a jab at Ziq, who had been trash talking this project and the people who spent the past year and a half working on it. For someone who personally invested weeks trying to get this thing off the ground, it was a milestone I enjoyed passing, even if it was incredibly petty.
I wasn't aware of that part of the story and it sure seems like petty internet drama.
No, if you see an "anarchist" in the wild (like reddit), they're too busy bashing MLs with libs and ancaps (at least they don't side with fasc scum, yet). Anyways, all I'm asking for is for them to stop agreeing with every little bit of CIA propaganda - but they don't realize they can both hate China and still be critical of the imperialist media machine and how it is never in the media's best interest to represent the truth about countries that pose a threat to western hegemony
idk i frequently visit r/anarchism and ML bashing posts are not at all as frequent as you try to make it out.
You can be critical of China and the imperialist media machine but whenever someone mentions anything bad about China or Lenin for example (see Nathan Robinson) they get mobbed because the communist meme man/meme state is saint and also Adrian Zenz is a cultist or whatever. And also what is the guarantee that Chinese media tells the truth? They're also fighting for hegemony, they're a global superpower, they're imperialist as well and a lot of leftists are (for a good reason) questioning if they're socialists at all because they're deeply embedded into the system of global capitalism.
Both of the following can be (and are, in fact) true:
China does bad things
Adrian Zenz is a literal cultist
No? You "anarchists" literally accuse anyone who states a remotely ML opinion of being wumaos who are busy shoveling Uighurs into ovens, and I'm fucking sick of this pity party after you guys start shit. No need to fall in line (we ain't libs) but DON'T. PUNCH. LEFT.
Holy fucking shit. You're telling me I'm strawmanning while you're saying anarchists are accusing MLs of shoveling Uighurs into ovens. You're telling me not to punch left while you call me a scare quotes anarchist and accusing anarchists of starting shit.
Real anarchists don't start shit, except in left-only spaces. "anarchists" like you dogpile with the libs then cry about it on left-only spaces
Are you just assuming what I'm up to or what?
I'm sure the version of me that exists in your head is a bad person, but I have no psychic powers and the Owl that lives in your head is just you.
When I say "you" I mean it in the general sense, mainly the people you support. I have no idea what you do outside of my conversation with you or if I've ever encountered you in the original Chapo. But the people you support, online "anarchists" in places like r/anarchism or r/completeanarchy, certainly fit the bill. I will admit, both places have been getting better, or at least appear to be, but it's a consistent pattern where anarchists first agree with capitalist propaganda (like before the coup, where America was manufacturing consent for said coup) only to disagree with their original assessment, around the same time the media feels it's safe to admit that they indeed manufactured consent (like how now the media admits that nothing fucky was going on in Bolivia and that our intervention was completely unjustified - but any attempt to reverse our original actions, of course, would be in the wrong)
When people on this site criticize anarchists, I assume they're talking about anarchists on this site, not random subreddits on reddit that suck largely because all the cool anarchists left and went to Chapo.
No, but you lose tankie points if you don't pretend they do.
Venezuela no Authoritarian leaders who commit human rights abuses and also aren't leftist at all yes.
First of all you assert (wrongly) that i or other anarchists judge states being authoritarian on a scale like China to Rojava and the US is somewhere on that scale, which is absolute bullsh. The US is bad, probably the worst authoritarian state on the world and i don't know why all of you act like it isn't the very obvious opinion of anarchists.
And again i don't scold CIA targeted countries, i scold leaders whether or not they are targeted by the CIA for obvious abuse of power.
This is a very good gotcha out of context, nice one, too bad that the conflict is almost a decade old and is way more nuanced than "the bad kurds steal oil for the imperialist regime just because they're evil"
Also you haven't disproven anything i wrote.
Damn website keeps eating my response so this isn't going to be as eloquent as it could be.
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Saying this "isn't just tankie-anarkiddie infighting" while accusing every problem you mention on anarchists is disingenuous as hell.
-
You suggest that supporting Sanders over neolibs despite him supporting some imperialist projects is fine, but you're not okay with people criticising states on a small leftist forum with <5000 subscribers. This is completely oblivious to the amount of power at play in these two situations.
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You suggest that you should never criticse a state that is the target of US imperialism (which is all of them, so never criticse a state other than the US I guess), while saying it's okay to have critical support, and singling out examples of exactly the sort of critical support you're likely to find on this website as being "okay." That is, you imply by making the argument that the types of criticism found on this website are bad, but the only option for good criticism you give is exactly the types of criticism found on this site, so there's no actual way to satisfy your position. This sort of mixing of contradictory instructions on different levels of abstraction is the format of a double bind, and it's really shitty way to argue.
while accusing every problem you mention on anarchists
The poster above mentions anarchists once - talking about 'the usual stances of American anarchists', which is not an attack on all anarchists - I think it's fair to say that you often see reddit anarchists "both sides" things, e.g. "Fuck both the US and the USSR! They were both evil!" I think that's a rather sophomoric view that deserves criticism, including from the anarchist perspective.
you’re not okay with people criticising states on a small leftist forum with <5000 subscribers
IMO that's a fair point, the CIA is not going to weaponize Chapo.Chat posts into an invasion of Venezuela. However, the same language you use in a small forum might easily carry over into what you say in a larger one. Solidifying the position you want to argue if everyone was listening makes sense to me.
so never criticse a state other than the US I guess
This is Chomsky quoting Sakharov ~ 'I criticize only my own country and ignore the crimes of other countries because I only have influence on my own country.' When you attack US enemies you're only doing the job of the State Department. This doesn't mean not CRITIQUING other countries, but don't effectively join a smear campaign against other countries.
The poster above mentions anarchists once
Also consider the thread context. But fair point.
Criticizing vs critiquing
This is heavily semantic and the boundary is going to be different in everyone's head. I don't think it's an effective line to draw.
"I only have influence on my own country"
This informs the purpose of the discussion. If I say China's worker protections are lacking, it is a given that I'm not influencing China. It's also a given that I'm not influencing the US state department, because they're not listening to me (and also they think lacking worker protections are a good thing). Who then is the audience? Other leftists in my own country, seeking to build their own socialist movement. The question is what's worth copying.
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I'm not gonna read all that, but I'm happy for you. Or sorry that happened, idk.
This is what I get for posting on ChapoTrapHouse... You absolute fucking moron. You didnt read my last message at all did you? You just casually go back r/neoliberal and hangout with them like theyre youre buddies. Knowing full well that if things go their way literally everyone is doomed to extinction. You dont give a shit about social democracy. You dont give a shit about other people. Hell, you dont even give a shit about improving your own life. You say you want to be pragmatic and "learn from all sides" yet you're too lazy to even pick up a book to learn your history, to further understand this world or your view on it. You dont view politics as a struggle between multiple ideologies vying for power to push their agenda, you just view it as a game. A topic you can discuss casually with friends or something you play around in your head when you're bored or when youre taking a shit. When you're hanging out in r/neoliberal, youre not trying to "understand" multiple views, youre trying to meme with them, exchanging jokes with these ghouls who are opposed to virtually everything you supposedly stand for. You're just a loser trying to fit in with a social clique. its all a fucking game to you I regret trying to inform your fucking tiny, willfully ignorant pathetic little brain.
Now you get to know what it feels like when your joke/bit doest land :'(
No, for you see, the opinions of anarchists are entirely comprised of posters on CompleteAnarchy
Anarchists in real life are pretty based. Online "anarchists" (Mostly state operatives and kids that deepthroat their boots) though, think we need to send in the nukes lmao
Bruh, historically, anarchists and tankies have resolved their differences with civil wars
Yeah, the problem IMO is that commercial social media platforms are designed to give a small set of people outsizes voices - particularly Twitter. So instead of having horizontal affinity groups you end up with massive social media influencers with millions of followers calling themselves things like "anarchists" despite the massive and unbalanced social hierarchy in place. Not to dumb things down to the level of "oh you say you have a disdain for hierarchy, and yet you're popular? Curious." but it definitely lets a handful of people anchor the discussion one way or the other.
It's actually very important that all western socialists denounce China because, umm, well...
Anyway, CHINA BAD!
hmmm, did u actually post that? An Authoritarian 100, the state fights al-quaeda so that's fascism, all hierarchies bad? Horizontal structure, red fash, all states are bad, soviet bootlicker, tankielarper, Republican Spain? HongKong good, China bad cuz that's what Anarchists do to earn respect from radlibs? Take over a city but just throw a block party and not form a workers state? DID YOU ACTUALLY POST THAT SHIT?!? DID YA?! DID YOU ACTUALLY POST THAT SHIT?!? YOU MOTHERFUCKER YOU SON OF A BITCH HAHAHAHAHAH OHOHOHAHAAHA THIS IS AN ANARCHIST MOMENT THIS IS A FUCKING ANARCHIST MOMENT OH GOD
For some reason my brain automatically read that as a hip hop style rap.
In one sense I agree with you and I'm pretty left unity gang generally. But imperialist discourse is so fucking extreme and the pandemic has made the necessity of a disciplined state command economy so vital I think that anarchism is really being shown up for a lot of its deficiencies at the moment
Sincerely,
DBTraven
That doesn't mean we need to jack of Xi Jingping with every post.
"The Communists are distinguished from the other working-class parties by this only:
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In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality
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In the various stages of development which the struggle of the working class against the bourgeoisie has to pass through, they always and everywhere represent the interests of the movement as a whole."
(https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm)
So you disagree with Marx that communists should “point out and bring to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality?” It’s like a basic principle of proletarian internationalism.
America is currently the strongest capitalist nation, although as you point out and as evidenced by the military failures, US imperialism has been on the decline in relative strength as the US loses ground economically. The vacuum from that relative decline is taken up by other imperialist powers, and capitalism marches on on the backs of the international working class.
Nice rant, you managed to be completely non-responsive.
So, again, you disagree with Marx on the basic principle of proletarian internationalism? Because all I posted was a quote from the communist manifesto and your brain spewed out all that nonsense about “supreme evil” (talk about making your politics religious).
I don’t support the Democratic Party, period, including AOC or Sanders. I don’t support US imperialism. I stand in solidarity with the working class in China, as I do with the rest of the international working class.
Based on that internationalism, I don’t support the betrayal of the Chinese revolution, throwing away the gains of that revolution, and the reinstatement of the rule of the bourgeoisie in China. You can talk all you want about how America is the greater “evil,” but it doesn’t change that analysis.
Lol okay. Perfect English by the way, but I’m sure your country yearns for freedom.
Which country? I probably have comrades there.
Really solid analysis to conflate working class with ruling class. I’m a black American working class person, none of this shit is “mine.” It’s not my government, not my wealth, not imperialism for my benefit.
You clearly went to some American school in Chile or something and your dad probably owns a factory, but yea go off.
And by virtue of all that plundering, which working class people have no say in, and by your own logic, American workers and poor have quite a bit to gain by taking ownership and control of the productive forces.
You go ahead and reject working class internationalism and see where that gets you. Go on a walking tour of East Saint Louis and explain to the people you meet how they benefit from the spoils of imperialism.
I really do insist you take your Private school education and go on a walking tour of East Saint Louis and explain to people how they benefit from the spoils of imperialism and are warmongering fascists.
Its funny how you’re writing all of this shit as a roundabout way of defending the reinstatement of capitalism in China.
Yea, I oppose imperialism, and moreover oppose capitalism, the logic and rules of which create imperialism. You’re not going to get rid of imperialism without getting rid of capitalism, and you’re probably not going to get rid of world capitalism without the working class in the USA taking power. Hate to break it to you.
Again, it’s not my regime and not my government. I make no apologies for them and they should be overthrown along with the entirety of the US ruling class.
You’re not from China, so why are you so invested in apologizing for the Chinese bourgeoisie?
Again none of this is "mine," I'm a working class person and I'm only in the US because my ancestors were slaves. I have a considerably negative net worth. And again, I'm a marxist, and actively work to overthrow the ruling class you're describing.
But let's look at your concrete advice on strategy--"go to washington and riot until the regime comes down." That's stupid and not actually a strategy. "Explain to people why imperialism is bad." Again, stupid, idealist, and not a strategy.
You do nothing besides post, guaranteed. But keep ranting. You're not going to convince me to stan the capitalist class in China or anywhere else, but if it makes you feel better about attending the Milton Friedman school of Viceroy-ism in Valparaiso, by all means continue.
Lol, you fought the good fight, comrade. This guy just really stans Jack Ma, and believes the entire American left is Bernie Sanders. Nothing that can be done to convince them of... anything.
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I'm not an anarchist myself, I'm more of a Demosc (I'm heavily electoralist for personal reasons) with Maoist influences (my theory itself is largely maoist-derived) So I'm not a fan of an echo chamber for either MLs or anarchists.
The people who managed to make the jump here are way more online than even the regular sub posters, it's gonna be like this for awhile yet.
Yeah for real, and it's almost always angry tankies. Can we have some left unity?
uncritical support for the DPRK in its heroic struggle to liberate occupied Korea from the genocidal American empire
"AH HA! Fucking dumbass 😎 don't you know? Only my 🦄special🦄 leftist tendency is correct! 🤠🤠🤠🤠🤠 HA HA LMAO you idiot🤡🤡🤡🤡 you think working with people 🤝🤝🤝🤝 you disagree with 👹 to help alleviate people's material conditions is good? 😆 LOL no! Every lefty of my internet posting style 🙈🙉🙊 knows helping people while working other tendencies is STUPID 😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎
So what if people we care about are being hunted and murdered by reactionary forces? 🚓 I would still never help other tendencies! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Since I'm relatively comfortable 🤠🤠🤠🤠 I don't feel the immediacy of reactionary threats like other people and can afford to argue on the internet all day!✊✊✊✊✊ See once you under stand that you understand how needless arguments are actually praxis AH HA HA 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
In fact I'd rather be killed ☠️☠️☠️☠️☠️ by reactionary forces 🚓🚓🚓🚓🚓 in the future than admit other tendencies might have something important to say.
Fuck other tendencies even if they want to help me! 😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎 Even if they reach out IRL NOT INTERESTED!🛑🛑🛑🛑🛑 Now excuse me I'm going to go back to being right on the internet as my praxis for the day! See you loser!"
"Sir this is a Wendy's. Can I just take your order sir. Please sir this is just a Wendy's can I take your order. Kindly step to the back of the line if you are not ready to order sir. Sir I'm going to have to call security . Sir this is a Wendy's, can I please take your order. Sir if you do not comply with our rules we have the right to refuse service. Security is here sir, they will escort you out of the building. Goodbye sir!
Welcome to this subreddit! Whether you are visiting here from /r/neoliberal or /r/politics, you might consider reading this guide so that you have at least some clue what is going on here, and you are not totally lost in your search for a political place on Reddit that is 1) critical of Trump 2) not blindly adoring AOC and Bernie 3) non-toxic and wholesome. If you are not sure whether your political ideology matches up, I'd recommend for you reading the sidebar.
Is /r/centerleftpolitics only about US politics?
Well, it's Reddit, so US politics dominates, but we have plenty of non-US users and discussion here.What is the Daily Discussion Thread?
The Daily Discussion Thread is the beating heart of this sub, averaging around 2.5K comments a day. It is refreshed and stickied every day at 7:07 AM EST, and is often referred to by its abbreviation DDT. It is quite similar to the Discussion Thread of /r/neoliberal. Being subscribed to /r/centerleftpolitics while never visiting the Daily Discussion Thread is like having a library card but only using it to rent movies: sure, you could do that, but you're missing out on a ton of potential here.I am scrolling through the DDT but I can only follow half of the stuff going on
Usually this is because of copypastas, or pastaposting. People copy a comment but change a few words. This is almost exclusively done for comedic purposes. Part of the joke is people scrolling down and not understanding it until they see the original comment later further down. If you respond seriously to the jokingly-intended copypasta, you "ate the pasta". This sometimes gets messy but in general it is all pretty hilarious.What is this stuff about a bathtub?
You don't want to knowWhy is one user called /u/Centrism_Lives?
Well, it started with a user having an account called "/u/Leftism_Kills", devoted to dunking on leftists. In this fashion, we had a user called "/u/Centrism_Kills", for the memes. That account was deleted, but returned shortly and gloriously in the form of /u/Centrism_Lives. We also have /u/Rightism_Kills to complete the trio. Personally, I have called dibs on /u/Centerleftism_kills so please keep that in mind.Why are there actual people here in this subreddit who are not white American young male atheist STEM students?
Yes, we have women, people of colour, gender minorities, and sexual minorities represented here. We would also like to keep it that way so be kind, and don't be a dick.Which /r/CLP regulars should I know?
We have over a hundred semi-daily active regulars and many more casual participators. You ll recognize them quickly but these are just a few names:
/u/taylor1589 - She is the esteemed Founder of the Sub
/u/Gustacho - Mod, Belgian liberal, and Twitter junkie
/u/DanFromREI - Chicago regular with stellar Sincereposting but inevitably always gets copypasta'ed
/u/LibertarianSocialism - Alibertarian socialistFrancophile. Also, one of these days he will finally submit that effortpost.
/u/Ferguson97 - No, he was not born in '97. Also, don't worry, Taylor teasing him is an inside joke.
/u/mercurial_zephyr - Straight up Hot Take factory
/u/Erra0 - Sort of the dad of the sub, really
Edit: /u/AllTheTroops - insisted on being added to this list even though he is, like, literally a complete joke to me omgWho is this Garathu y'all keep referring to?
He was a former mod, Southern liberal, and kind emoji-posting regular who added panache to our community here. However, on the day that our Daily Discussion Thread first reached 4K comments, he tragically and mysteriously deleted his account. We are all heavily in withdrawal, and he is dearly missed.What is this Big Boar everybody keeps talking about?
Cherished regular /u/DanFromREI once shared he had had a bad dream about a chad pig who called himself ‘the BIG BOAR’”. We just kinda took it from there.Y'all are obsessed with Beto.
Yes, some of us definitely are.Why are Mandela and MLK in the banner?
Mandela because, while radical as an activist with Marxist sympathies, had a moderate and conciliatory record as president in his quest to abolish South African apartheid.
MLK because, while radical as an activist with socialist sympathies, had a moderate and conciliatory record as leader of the civil rights movement in his quest to abolish US segregation.What sort of stuff should I comment in the DDT?
Literally anything you want <3What sort of stuff should I comment outside the DDT?
We strive more towards informative articles and videos, but memes and news are allowed as well. If you have an area of expertise, you are invited to write an effortpost on your topic of choice! I am currently involved in a series on Liberalism in the Netherlands.Everybody I see here has a flair. How do I pick one?
In the sidebar, below the subscribe button you can find your name and the "add flair" button next to it. There's tons of options to pick from so you'll definitely find something which fits you right there.This sub is small but active, close-knit, and kind-spirited. I think you'll like it here. With the Democratic 2020 primary approaching you'll see many users here disagreeing with each other but we always try to do so in a civil and respectful way. Also, we kid around a lot so don't take stuff too seriously.
List of abbreviations
CLP - /r/centerleftpolitics
NL - /r/neoliberal
TD - /r/the_Donald
CTH - /r/ChapoTrapHouse
AOC - Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
DDT - the CenterLeftPolitics Daily Discussion Thread
DT - the Neoliberal Discussion Thread
NIMBY - Not In My BackYard
YIMBY - Yes, In My BackYardThis is like zombie politics, when the brainworms have consumed your brain, this is destiny.
Nah fuck Destiny, like Vaush he's one of those greasy crypto-fascists who looks like he rolls around in smegma or cheeto dust
Thought I was being clever, it was meant in a literal sense first and a dunk on destiny second, implying his takes are zombie politics.
So yeah, fuck Destiny and Vaush :100-com:!
I guess my bit didn't land lol, I'm trying to make fun of the people that just believe the CIA propaganda about "China bad"
Edit: also how tf is r/centerleftpolitics a real thing? It even sounds sadder than r/neoliberal somehownon-toxic and wholesome
You know their definition of "non-toxic and wholesome".
Maybe if it had less emoji spam it would've done better
Yeah, I really don't think this belongs on /main, or even the site as a whole. Criticism of other sects based on actual Things That Have Happened is good and helps people analyse and improve their own ideology. This post is a badly drawn meme where one person completely makes up both sides of a conversation in order to make one side sound bad. This could literally be posted by the CIA to make everyone on this website angry at each other, and it would have worked.
I'm not even an anarchist and I think this is just a really unhelpful post.
They don't care why you don't support China. Lol.
Learn some fucking history. NATO intelligence often used trot and ultras in the cold war to organize against other communists from the ostensible left.
Good. Then you surely see that the US is moving rapidly towards a new cold war with the PRC, then.
Just to take your point on its face and accept that China does not represent a threat to global capitalism...
Is there not competition between national bourgeoisies? Can that competition not lead to conflict? Do we not also oppose conflict between bourgeois states? Even if we don't support opposing states in the abstract, should we not recognize the need to diffuse domestic nationalistic propaganda?
You can try to claim the ground of idealistic moral superiority. But on whose behalf are you doing so? There is no "left-wing" faction vying for control of the PRC.
There's no internal critique because there's no party. Because theres no party, we can't develop a party line after debate. It's just posting shit online.
Oh I'm definitely just posting shit online. Just trying to do so without repeating anti-China propaganda
No, you have to signal (moral) support for the liberalization and reintegration of China into global capitalism, otherwise you're doing "idealism," which is where you influence geopolitics through posting.
shut the fuck up about your dumb sectarianism already
god fucking dammit. Go somewhere else with that shit
If you feel the need to spend your time stoking the fight between socialists, you are more deadly to this place than the kerry spammers.
I'd refrain from mentioning them. Those fuckers are like voldemort
Your account is 17 hours old. I'm actually somewhat suspicious that you are one of those wreckers adopting a different strategy to poison this place for people.
Damn, targeting new people who actually like posting memes that are well-liked. This sort of paranoia is exactly what's driving people away, and you're directly working to poison this place whether you're aware of it or not
No, sectarianism is driving people away. If you are just going to be antagonizing different factions of socialists, I'll be happy if I manage to drive you away.
And also, your meme isn't "well liked". If you look at the ratio of downvotes and compare it to those on other posts, it's actually pretty damn controversial. But then again, that's the point. Isn't it, wrecker?
If you are cool with this being a place for socialists of different persuasions to just "own" eachother all day, than that's fine, but I'm out
There's no chuds coming in, so we just telling each other to post-hog. But I'm not sure if this shit meme counts as sectarianism. Just a light jab. But I'm down for this to be the new struggle sesh, the wrecker arc is lame.
Framing the ability for well meaning leftists to sometimes fall for CIA propaganda because they don't know how to give critical support as exclusive to libertarian socialists is incendiary and sucks
We retiring the word "libertarian-socialists". There ain't no such thing.
Get in the tank or get out the way
