It seems to be the same in every company. Layer upon layer of managers and supervisors that don't actually DO anything.

Companies would be so much more efficiently run without them, so what causes this?

EDIT: I think I might have something of an answer here thanks for @ABigguhPizzahPieh 's comment/video they posted. So, the notion of "robots are going to take our jobs" has actually already happened, and it's been happening for decades. There's just not enough work to go around for everyone. But reducing the work week from 40 hours is obviously unconscionable in capitalism, because working people aren't allowed to have nice things or better lives, so instead there has grown a massive layer of managerial and clerical type "workers" who are paid to do nothing for 40 hours a week and are miserable for it.

  • TossedAccount [he/him]
    cake
    ·
    4 years ago

    I can think of three reasons:

    1. It's part of the "bullshit jobs" pressure valve to keep unemployment low enough that you don't get riots like what happened in 2020. Capitalism requires people without capital to work to survive regardless of whether the work satisfies real wants and needs. The premise of capitalism comes under question when the surplus created by productive labor is just freely distributed to the unemployed without caveats, without social shame attached.

    2. It's a disciplinary measure for the drones at the bottom of the corporate hierarchy. Having redundant middle managers means diffusion of accountability: workers suffering because of the shit decisions can blame their immediate supervisor or that supervisor's boss for decisions made by a manager three layers above the bottom-tier workers, and executives can pass blame downwards onto immediate subordinates who can then pass the buck to their subordinates and so on. Assigning blame becomes a matter of pointing fingers which means top executives who fuck up or make controversial decisions on behalf of shareholders don't immediately catch heat from a significant portion of the company's workers. A vice president can act on a president's decision to fire or discipline someone and grant the president some degree of plausible deniability, soaking up the hatred while the president can pretend to be the good guy. Every layer adds another buffer to protect top management and shareholders from angry rank-and-file workers.

    3. Middle- and upper-middle-managers soak up some of the surplus value extracted from the rank-and-file. The top management of course get the biggest checks but it's easier to notice the pay disparity if it's just top management getting the lion's share of pay that they clearly did not earn through their own labor. The higher pay afforded to managers (the "M" part of PMC which leans petty-bourgie) means they have the same material stake (qualitatively, if not quantitatively) in extracting more value from the rank-and-file that execs and shareholders do, and this dynamic plays out in a nested Russian-doll fashion in specific departments all the way down to the first layer of managers/supervisors who still do a significant amount of real work.

    • zifnab25 [he/him, any]
      ·
      4 years ago

      There's definitely an aspirational "One day I'll be middle management" aspect to this.

      Becoming a supervisor or even a director is seemingly attainable. And they're comfortably in the petite bourgeoise. They tend to be more experienced and often have degrees that give them the impression of high skill. So everything looks like a meritocracy on the surface.

      Run the business long enough and you build up a relationship with all these people in the surrounding food chain. C-levels probably even begin to delude themselves into thinking "Everyone here deserves this."

    • glimmer_twin [he/him]
      ·
      4 years ago

      I like this idea that they exist as a buffer between workers and the real bosses. I mean, that is literally what a manager is I guess, lol.

      I was also going to say something similar to your other point about the system requiring a certain amount of the population to be working/earning (and regurgitating those earnings back into the economy). If managerial bloat didn’t exist, capitalism would probably have to create it.

      Another potential answer to OP, modern capitalism requires an intense amount of logistics for all the moving parts to work together, I’m sure the explosion in PMC type positions is also somewhat attributable to that.

  • ABigguhPizzahPieh [none/use name,any]
    ·
    4 years ago

    Check out this talk by late great David Graeber on exactly what you're describing: Bullshit Jobs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kikzjTfos0s

      • ABigguhPizzahPieh [none/use name,any]
        ·
        edit-2
        4 years ago

        You're very welcome. His work is really interesting. I disagree with him in some places but in general he's got some really cool stuff to say and I'd recommend going through his other lectures and his debates. He had a debate with the capitalist/Palantir,PayPal cofounder Peter Thiel where he just casually dunks on Thiel.

        • Frank [he/him, he/him]
          ·
          4 years ago

          I can't believe Thiel's PR people let him walk in to a room with an actual intellectual. : |

        • sexywheat [none/use name]
          hexagon
          ·
          4 years ago

          Oh that sounds wonderful. Link if you got it?

          I guess it would be nice to have a more materialist/Marxist analysis of bullshit jobs rather than just a strictly anti-capitalist one but it was sill very compelling.

  • Llituro [he/him, they/them]
    ·
    4 years ago

    The illusion that most of the country needs to work for everyone to eat is something that helps perpetuate the existence of Late Capitalism.

    If you know how to read a little bit, I highly recommend reading The Utopia of Rules by David Graeber. I think it's written in a really accessible way, and it's basically him trying to figure out why big beuracracy exists. Fantastic book.

  • Spinoza [any]
    ·
    4 years ago

    op please read utopia of rules and then bullshit jobs by david graeber. there's really good insight into this in those books, especially in the first one

  • _else [she/her,they/them]
    ·
    edit-2
    4 years ago

    they keep the worker oppressed and create a layer of padding between the workers and the absolute caligulan parasites at the top.

    as both a managerial system and a class structure; it makes perfect sense.

    remember; corporations do not exist to be efficient at making money. they exist to perpetuate and exacerbate classist exploitation and diffuse responsibility into nothingness. a layer of middle managers is just logical for this. MORE layers of middle managers is MORE logical. vague corporate structures cannot be lynched.

    they don't have to do anything. they just need to exist identify (more with the oppressors than the oppressed)and attenuate.

  • quartz242 [she/her]M
    ·
    4 years ago

    IMO Its the carrot for the worker, give a person who is completely alienated from the power of their labor a small slice of the power pie within a vertical power structure and razzle dazzle with salary & other perks. And thus you have the carrot of a "career path" to counter the stick of at-will employment.

  • DickFuckarelli [he/him]
    ·
    edit-2
    4 years ago

    The way I look at it is this:

    Any business is a microverse of capitalism as a whole. Pyramid scheme - small top, huge bottom, but an ever upward dwindling middle.

    The middle is the PMC. It's what all the children of bottom layers strive to become. But competition is fierce because the owner's 25 year old airhead child needs a place to plant their ass, and they're certainly not going to the mailroom.

    The kick in the balls is, if they allow you up the pyramid, life gets abundantly easier workwise so everyone tries to look busy, or the elite will dream up busy work that may possibly require more hours and time from the PMCs versus the workers who reside below them, with the promise that one day the middle managers might ascend. Some, a select few, will figure out how to make some company dependencies completely rely on their know-how. But for the rest, it's just busy work for the sake of busy work. To eek more productivity out of your underlings, or to chase new business. Always something you're not doing enough of.

    That day of ascension and promise of promotion never comes. Because the top is not for you. The middle is barely for you. And if they don't like you, they'll can your ass and replace you with another true believer. And the cycle continues.

    I also have a theory that if there was no buffer between workers and the elite, the elite would all show themselves for what they are and there would be worksite revolutions everywhere. They kind of need the buffer of class traitors who can take the heat but still talk like a poor.

    • Frank [he/him, he/him]
      ·
      4 years ago

      Killing your boss solves a variety of problems. Killing your manager just creates new problems. Hence, managers.

  • lib_0000429384 [any]
    ·
    4 years ago

    There was a post not long ago about how The Office was the most watched TV show in 2020, and how depressing it was.

    The Gervais Principle is a brilliant analysis of the predictable lifecycle of a modern company, including the clueless middle management you mentioned, and uses The Office for examples.

    It's equally funny and sad that so many people relate to the show without even knowing why.

    • femboi [they/them, she/her]
      ·
      edit-2
      4 years ago

      I read that a while ago, I liked the first few installments but thought the later ones were kinda weird and mostly nonsense

  • Owl [he/him]
    ·
    4 years ago

    I don't really think middle management is a feature of capitalism. I saw the same thing working both for private businesses and the government. And the capital class would certainly rather not have layers of expensive middle managers who don't do anything.

    Rather, middle management is rewarded based on their ability to manage large orgs, so everyone in the chain benefits from inserting layers below themselves. But everyone knows this is the game, including the investors, so new layers can only be added when someone demonstrates sufficient ability to bullshit up a reason for their layer existing.

    Honestly, I think it makes sense to view middle management as a third class, more aligned with capital than with workers, but hostile to both.

  • JoesFrackinJack [he/him]
    ·
    4 years ago

    Also love when companies bring in consultants who are another form of middle management in a sense who decide who gets the axe and who gets more work load. Great system

  • J_Edbear_Hoover [she/her]
    ·
    4 years ago

    Efficiently run companies don't have gobs of middle managers, they build processes from the ground up, in poorly run companies they sit around around and use dumb buzzwords and business jargon to justify their existence.

  • zifnab25 [he/him, any]
    ·
    4 years ago

    Bureaucracies have traditionally existed to off-load time-consuming work from a single individual onto a multitude. So when your company grows from 5 employees to 50, you need to expand HR to manage them all. And then you need someone to manage HR, in turn.

    Since one person can't efficiently manage more than five or ten others, this creates layers of management as the company grows.

    But then you have to factor in that people are lazy. If I bust ass, I can manage 20 people. But busting ass sucks. It's miserable. Far better to hire a deputy and give the deputy 10 people to manage. Or... better still, two deputies. And then I've got time to myself. I've got a department with a budget and my company is doing well. Why not?

    So management metasticizes. And the folks at the top rely on the folks in the middle to communicate what the folks at the bottom are doing. A CEO can't fire his VP, because the VP is the guy he interfaces with every day. And a VP can't fire his director. And the director can't fire his manager. And the manager can't fire his supervisor. Not without assuming those associated roles.

    The only people you can comfortably fire are the lowest level staffers. At worst, those roles go back onto the supervisor. The supervisor gets to keep his job and the manager gets to say "We cut the employment budget!" up the chain to the director who tells it to the VP who tells it to the CEO. And everyone's happy.

    But now you have a system where the business cycle grows the management tree while trimming the employee base.

    It's a recipe for this kind of management creep.

  • Blottergrass [he/him]
    ·
    edit-2
    4 years ago

    For the people at the top, it's like diversifying your portfolio, but instead of stocks, its accountability and responsibility. THey have to go through an army of middle managers before getting to you. With enough middle management, the only "work" a 1%er has to do is sit in a zoom meeting while getting blown and yes/no a bunch of proposals.