All colonialism was bad, but the Belgian version was like exceptionally awful even though it was over a shorter time period and smaller footprint. The fact the the percent of Belgians who are proud of that legacy isn't zero is disgusting, death to Belgium.
Yeah they were so brutal that even other colonial states were appalled.
Can confirm, president Xi please send the nukes. Flanders deserves to be destroyed.
I'm surprised close to one fourth of Belgians say it's something to ashamed of tbh
lmao imagining the 31% of Germans when asked being like "I do not know. please do not ask any more questions. goodbye."
Germany is the most progressive on this issue, and even they're shit.
It's probably more that their empire was short lived and didn't get to do all that much colonialism before getting ripped apart by ww1.
I had a history prof who said of all the awful colonial oppressors, Germany was maybe the least bad. Don't know if that's actually true or not.
The Wilhelminian empire existed for less than 50 years, was nowhere near the British or Spanish empire in size and still managed to pull off two genocides in Namibia and an involvement in the opium wars. Before kicking off WW1. If it was the least bad, it was due to scale. Where it ruled, it extracted wealth with the exact same ruthlesness and disregard for non-white lives as other empires.
I don't know either, but make sure you are aware of the Herero and Namaqua genocide
imo it's not really worth ranking them in terms of terribleness. Germany and Italy were latecomers to the colonial game due to becoming states later, but they were all playing it
imo it’s not really worth ranking them in terms of terribleness.
Yeah, it's like sure there are some that just stand head and shoulders above the rest when it comes to the sheer extent of human misery they caused, and others that stand out for how extreme and monstrous their atrocities were, but framing the sort of middle of the pack ones that were awful but not quite as awful as the very worst ones as lesser evils is kind of... I don't know how to put it, maybe it's just the wrong way of framing it? Like singling one or the other out is only really worth it when it's over how extreme their crimes were, while describing one as "least excessive" or "least awful" comes dangerously close to minimizing their actions, especially when their reason for having done less overall was not intent or ethics but a simple lack of time and opportunity.
Spaniard here, we were also not that bad compared with the UK and France because we were already a declining empire who was ignored during the partition of africa and all our colonies were already liberating themselves. Lol
F in colonialism.
Completely unrelated but I never get to speak to Spaniards, but I just want to say learning about the Spanish Civil War did a lot to push me towards socialism.
Nice.
Most conservatives or enlighened centrists try to use legitimate criticisms of the republic in order to equate them with Franco.
Was it a clusterfuck? Yes.
Were fascists but also probably normal people extrajudicialy killed during the war? Yes
Were communists killing fascists before the war (and viceversa)? Yes
Did some communists attempt a revolution that failed soon in 1934 in Asturias? Yes
AND EVEN THEN, there's a clear "good" and a "bad" side. Ffs, you can win over even some liberals by pointing out that the communists were a minoritarian party before the war.
Also, some fascists (or idiots) try to justify the coup because a few days earlier a conservative /fascist politician (Calvo Sotelo) was murdered (just like so many other people of all political sides). I don't know if they believe people had phones back then, but a coup can't be organized in a few days. What may be true is that the murder helped Franco decide to give support to the coup because he didn't know what to do before (one good thing i will say about the man is that he was a great opportunist and knew how to seize them), but i would still doubt that.
Typical fascist playbook, cry foul over any wrongs committed by the left while excusing their own bullshit.
Eh, i'd say 99% are liberals going all "MMMMMHMMM, this case seems pretty clear-cut, well, time to look for bad stuuf the other side did so i can be superior to both of them".
CEDA gave over their campaign contributions and they had to woo franco. How does that happen in a day?
Spaniard here, we were also not that bad
I think the whole of America's indigenous populations who were worked to death in mines and sugar plantations would probably argue otherwise.
Yeah, and the northen ones wouldn't argue back because the british and americans murdered all of them.
Again, go tell that to their grandpas, mine stayed here and had no input in our foreign policy.
Not a pissing contest though? Nor was it a shot at you or your family. Just came across as a bit of genocide apologia by saying Spain wasn't that bad.
You don't need to deflect to how poorly UK, French, Canadians, and Americans treated those populations (even though Spain did just as much to people in western North America). They were all horrendous and all should have to make repetitions. But Spain belongs right along side those colonizers for the atrocities they built their wealth upon.
Yeah, they were all horrendous. But there is a difference between an actual extermination and a "normal" conquest (horrible as it may be). Just look at the difference in number of natives in South A and North A.
Something that i want to point out:
Should the spanish government pay reparations or our royal family? Who is actually responsible? For the americans is easy to talk about these since there has been an inumterrupted line between Washington and Trump, but we had had a few royal families (Habsburg, Bourbon, Saboii), two republics, two dictatorships and our current constitutional monarchy. Also, even the Zapatistas (https://nacion321.com/ciudadanos/ezln-sobre-reclamo-de-amlo-espana-no-tiene-que-pedir-perdon-de-nada) believe Spain shouldn't apologize or do anything. Focusing on what Spain did 400 years ago seems weird when the FMI and the USA are fucking over the place RIGHT NOW.
“We Spaniards are an enlightened lot,” I say smugly as I walk through my dazzling city. “Our genocidio was much nicer than theirs.”
“Where did all the money come from to build this city, this grand crumbled empire, you ask? No fucking clue, I guess we just found it.”
We continue walking.
“Did i benefit from the empire? Shucks no friend, I traced my family history back 500 years, all 150,000 ancestors living at that time, and found no one participated in the empire. They all lived out in the woods, and every descendant since then has also lived in the woods. We have never lived in a society.”
I see a stupid American look on your face.
“What are we going to do about it?” I make a confused puppy face in return. “They’re all dead anyway I guess so what’s the point? Let’s just move on.”
We turn the corner.
“Apologize? No, the Zapatistas say that the capitalists shouldn’t apologize because what good would that do. So that means us leftists should do absolutely nothing,” I say, smugly.
Dumb Americans, I think, they really know nothing of history.
Our dumbfuck royal family used most of the money to fund more wars so no, the cities are not made with their gold.
Read some fucking history before smugly trying to explain it to the locals.
It was still a genocide, though? Like if the onset was to take them all out on purpose or if it was a byproduct of the colonization is minute differences and placing what Spain did in the category of "not that bad" excuses the behavior.
Just because it was 400-150 years ago doesn't meant it hasn't placed strains on the countries or indigenous populations that exist there today?
If I cut off your leg at the knee today, and then did nothing to fix it would 50 years from now we be ok? Or should I still owe you a prosthetic to make up for the damage I did?
Germany had multiple colonial empires. The short lived one under the Kaisers, and the shorter lived one under Hitler.
Idk I'd say that countries who have more people ashamed are actually the mor progressive side. They're still up there (tied for 3rd).
I agree, and with that logic Italy is the most progressive country on the list. 🇮🇹
I feel like this was done so that Germany's colonial legacy was put in the spotlight, otherwise it would have been a 100% no. (or at least it should be, but I'm quite certain there's still plenty of nazi psychos who would say yes)
Fairly certain the Venn diagram of Germans being proud of colonialism and Germans being proud of fascism is a perfect circle. The 9% number would roughly check out, too.
Nah Netherlands is in second place. Ask US Americans if they are proud of their colonial empire i.e. Manifest Destiny to the Pacific, pioneers, the Wild West etc and I bet it's at least 85%
:amerikkka:
37% of americans alone believe slavery leading to the civil war should not be taught
You probably couldn't even get 15% to admit we have an empire, let alone not be ashamed of it.
Funny because even limiting it to "western expansion" is understating it, it implies the eastern US isn't also a colonial empire. Like, the entire USA is an oppressive colonial empire, just without a "motherland".
I mean I agree, but I also don't know how to reconcile this with the fact that, after some number of generations, it essentially is your "motherland". Like I have no connection to the places my ancestors come from, including not speaking the languages spoken there. I've been meaning to find some better stuff about decolonization to read, as I think I get too much stuff from the internet at times.
Further, after 6-8 generations, they concept of anestral homeland seizes to even make sense, since you have 2^n ancestors at that point (64 and 256 for 6 and 8, respectfully). Yeah some of those might be "repeats" but don't expect them all to come from the same nation. Not at all.
And that's not including the Philippines, Puerto Rico, and the rest of the overseas colonial empire
I consider the "Neither nor" option to be functionally the same as the "proud of" option, the majority of chuds no matter the nationality are moral cowards at the end of the day
Why would you be proud/embarrased by people who died centuries before you were born? I mean, i also extend this to communist figures, Che was awesome but why would i be proud of his accomplishments?
Disclaimer: ignore this comment if said country is still actively doing colonialism but in a more subtle way.
Why would you be proud/embarrased by people who died centuries before you were born?
Because we live in a society and the traditions of all dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living :monke-ruserious:
But on a more serious note, the survey is basically just asking you to make a value judgment on old tyrannical empires, aside from the open chuds who love everything those empires represented you also have the real and fake apathetics who would rather launder their identification and social links to these old systems thru noncommittal answers, despite the fact the character and nature of those empires should be abominable to any half-decent individual
*any half-decent individual who had a half-decent education, when you're fed propaganda, just propaganda, no wonders that's what you believe, something something class consciousness
No, i get it. I would probably answer the centrist and coward one or the "comndenation" one depending on how i feel that day.
"It's sad that it happened but it really couldn't have happened any other way because I lack perspective and imagination."
it depends it might be also a way to say I don't know without the stigma of a lack of knowledge, to be fair that's what centrism is anyways
We should add a bunch of flag emojis with a way to add fire to them, except if you use it with the trans flag you get instantly banned. Weed out chuds.
I remember listening to the Behind the Bastards episode on the Dutch East India Company—most psychopathic thing I've ever learned in history.
That too, but it starts with the Dutch starting to extract nutmeg/mace from the Banda Islands.
What their government did to those families recently is insane.
Then liberals go like "damn, i wish our government were held accountable like theirs, what nice guys those northern european guys, resigning for a scandal", while ignoring that they are extremely racist, bankrupted hundreds of families and the elections were soon anyway.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/1/15/dutch-pm-rutte-and-his-government-quit-over-child-welfare-scandal
They did means testing, but were explicitly racist about it.
Translates to colonized, Dutch people love spamming it whenever the Netherlands is mentioned online.
It's supposed to mean the polders/reclaimed land, but I don't think it's always used that way...
One of the few times I agree with Liam Anderson of WTYP is on the Dutch. Fuck the Dutch, and their black-face Christmas Ass Backwards "traditions."
There are whole islands that were depopulated for the sake of nutmeg
