Elder Scrolls is literally the least "fash" fantasy out there. Yes, I am a huge fucking nerd, no I am not white, I'll see you in the comments mother fucker, I KNOW THE LORE! FIGHT ME!
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mfkers be like "yeah i played skyrim, i know the elder scrolls inside out"
You can not know elder scrolls inside out unless you have played Morrowind on a computer that could barely handle to render inside the boat, to truly appreciate each precious frame.
You can not truly know the elder scrolls inside out unless you bought daggerfall and never got out of the first dungeon
Sentient trees (the hist) imitated human/elven form when transforming the ancestor lizards (regular ass quadrupedal lizards) into argonians. So basically, It just works. Also, argonians canonically change their gender whenever they want with he hist, which is awesome. Also, the Argonians organized with a militant political party to liberate southern morrowind and dunk on slavers so basicly yeah, Argonians are communist and good, including their booba.
Also, argonians canonically change their gender whenever they want with he hist
I knew about the Hist booba but not that it just worked like that, I genuinely learned something new and cool, thanks comrade for answering my dumb question in good faith.
Elder scrolls is bad because they're too cowardly to let you play as a Dwarf (obviously best fantasy race) and all of their shitty lore is just making excuses about how the dwarves are too cool to let you play as them.
The Dwemer are objectively the (second) most evil race behind the Alyieds, and not evil becuase of their race, but because of what their societies did, (lots and lots of slavery among other horrible institutional evil).
Sorry, I won't hear this liberal take about the only species to achieve posadism.
The Alyieds, or Heartland elves, are the elves that settled in what is now cyrodil, and the builders of the Imperial City and all the white marble ruins in oblivion. They enslaved the needic humans living in cyrodil and made extinct the bird like race that once inhabited the jungles of cyrodil. The Alyieds were destroyed by the slave uprising of St Alessia, who founded the first empire.
I hate how they made the anti-slavery people fucking Imperials. those things don't go together.
Every society is kinda bad in TES, with maybe the exception of the Argionians. Doesn't mean it isnt an interesting fantasy world though.
Well England was once a colony of Rome and look how that turned out
that is a little ironic.. maybe that's intentional? becoming the enemy blah blah
I see. I really appreciate the elder scrolls for making elves just straight-up evil as opposed to the impossibly pure way they are usually depicted.
CHIM, is In my humble, conjecture based option, is kirkbride's way of synthesizing eastern and western philosophy. To understand you are nothing and to believe that you are everything. To know that you are a personality construct in an uncaring god-head, while also having the ego to believe your identity is worth asserting. To see the wheel on its side and see the tower and to see the tower spells "I". To hold these two contradictory beliefs is to achieve CHIM. Comprehension of the godhead without ego is to zero-sum (Kagranak), ego all encompasing is to be a Sharmat, a false dreamer (DagothUr). Hope that clears it up! Make sure to buy Skyrim !
Thats really cool but how does this make people be able to bend reality, is it a pure force of ego and will that is able to bend the dream once you fully grasp your place in it?
Yeah basically. Once you realize, once you know, that you are in a dream, in real life, you wake up (zero sum), but if you somehow maintain your dream identity with this knowledge you become a lucid dreamer in a sense.
So all of Elder Scrolls is a dream? Does that mean Tiber Septum and the Dwemer 'woke up'?
Where do people go when they achieve zero-sum? Do they just become a part of the godhead or do they exist as their own gods outside of the godhead?
tiber septum basically became a god, and the dwemer accidentally became the skin of the giant robot that tiber septum used to become god (because dwarf elon musk played the wrong melody on a sick ass god bone instrument)
it's implied they cease to exist as a person when they zero-cum, since it's basically "wait, im just a freakin construct in a dream, i don't exis--"
CHIM is different bc its like "not real? i think therefore i am my dudes. if this is a dream that means i can shoot poo poo lasers out of my third eye heheheheh"
its also implied that elder scrolls exists in an endless chain of dreamers creating universes and those universes creating dreamers (godheads) that make their own universe in their dream and so on
in semi-lore some dude marries vivec and has like dream sex with her and they birth the next godhead
I KNOW THE LORE! FIGHT ME!
Out of all the main characters in the series, which one is the strongest and which one would come out on top in a round robin 1v1 tournament? Give reasoning and proper argumentation.
For the sake of keeping this reasonably sized, I will assume you mean protagonists of the main games, if you mean the strongest non-god entity, then the Talos oversoul (pre apotheosis) is the strongest (Wulfharth, Zurin Arctus and Hjalti-Early Beard) due to acces to the numidium and the resources of an entire empire, as well as being the most powerful warrior, mage, and politician on Tamriel. So, as far as protagonists go, its The Hero of Kavatch, and its not even close, the HoK has mantled Sheogorath and is a literal Deadric lord. You could make the argument that as long as The Last Dragonborn doesn't enter oblivion, they could beat the HoK (temporarily) and the argument could be made that the LDB could mantle a Deadric prince if they wanted to seeing as how the HoK did it, but then again, the HoK only did it with the cooperation of the previous Sheogorath. Also the LDB's connection to Herma-mora is irrelevant, as they are subservient to Herma, and even if the LBD had Herma working for them, we run into the same problem of needed to beat Sheogorath (HoK) in their own realm of oblivion, which is basically impossible. If you don't count post apotheosis HoK then the LBD is the most powerful mortal.
which one would come out on top in a round robin 1v1 tournament?
These were the conditions. Whether or not anyone has the resources of an empire or the numidium doesn't apply. Yes, I am talking about the protagonists of the main game. Comparing their power sets, who would come out on top? I want specifics of feats. E.g. LDB can shout fire, become ethereal etc. How do they compare in a fight?
This doesn't really work, because you can't just get these characters in a round robin 1v1 tournament without breaking the lore (timelines, getting HoK out of oblivion) so doing a lore analysis is kinda moot. but I guess if we are talking pre-apotheosis HoK, and we just time travel everyone into a pocket realm of oblivion, The Eternal Champion, the Hero of Kavatch and The Agent just get wiped instantly by the LBD's thuum and the Neravarine's artifacts (keening, sunder, and wraithguard), as they are just mortals who did a thing. Between the LBD and Neravarine, I would say the LBD comes out on top, simply due to the fact that the LBD has bend will wich can mind control even Dragons, which are some of the most powerfull non-deity status beings in the universe.
Unless HoK gets off a lucky wabbajack right out the gate while LDB is preparing the shout. Now I need to know which attack takes longer.
Wabbajack is probably faster than 3 word shout. 1 word shout is probably faster than wabbajack.
IMO I think wabbajack wins then. Is there a single word shout that could instantly render the HoK out of the fight? Cause if not then it's over for LDB. Even if they single shouts anything to interrupt the HoK he now has a cool down for the next shout. HoK just need to be able to smack them with one good wabbajack and it's over.
Perhaps not render HoK out of the fight, but can protect LDB from wabbajack itself. Slow time and Become Ethereal can at least negate the initial wabbajack.
True I guess but those are just temporary and the cool down would take long enough that as soon as the effects wear off it's wabba time. Sure LDB might get off one or two free hits but if we are talking about a fully geared and leveled HoK, it would take more than a couple of hits to take them out. In the meantime the second those effects wear off it's game over.
That is if we assume that shouts are all LDB has. If LDB can cast wards, wabba will never work.
So let's say that someone used an elder scroll in each timeline and every hero were transported to Sovngarde, you would give the win to HoK because the lore describes his feats as greater than every other hero?
Neravarine has the most feats (killed multiple god-level entities) but feats don't equal power, the ) LBD would win through bend will alone.
The protagonists don't have a set playstyle, for obvious reasons, all we do know is the the Neravarine has the Tools of Kagranak, wich makes them super power full in many ways, and that they killed living gods with them.
I mean we know that absent anything else, the LDB at least has the Thu'um. Do any of the others have a default power set?
No, all the protagonists are just some person with powerful artifacts and some way of fighting, with the exception of the LDB, who is not just a person, but an actual dragon.
What does 'dragon' mean in the lore? How does LDB classify as an actual dragon?
To be a dragon is to be a pice of the Aka-oversoul (alduin, akatosh, auri-el, all lesser dragons) and the LBD does not have the soul of a man or mer or beast, but the soul of a dragon.
Source? Where is this stated that the soul of a dragon is equivalent to a dragon? Azura's star might contain a giant's soul. Does that mean that Azura's star is a giant? No, it means that Azura's star is a daedric artifact which houses a giant's soul and not a giant itself.
Me calling the LBD a literal dragon is just something I like to do, idk any in game source that does this.
So why would the dragon aspect shout exist then? Doesn't the existence of the shout show a divide between the LDB and a dragon? Same for dragonrend. Apparently no dragon can actually use dragonrend.
Obviously there is a divide, the LBD has a mortal body, instead of a dragon body, wich allows them to comprehend mortality and use dragonrend and such, while also having its obvious drawbacks. I am of the belief that the "soul" as it exists in TES is what makes somebody who they are, not the body, and to some extent in real life as well. :thonk-trans:
Why are you of this opinion? What have you read in the lore that would lead you to the conclusion that the soul is the totality of a thing?
Idk if you noticed but like half the appeal of TES lore is the openness of the community/creators of the lore to just fill in the gaps with you own headcannon, I literally don't care about what is 100% cannon or not, if you do, that's cool, if your headcannon is different, thats cool too, mine is just better.
I mean I get the headcanon part when it comes to fleshing out a particular player character, like whether or not they use bows. Isn't this supposed to be a technical thing in-universe?
We have to remember that there is no objective source of lore in TES. All the in game texts are written by an in universe person, so questions like "are dragonborns dragons" would be a debate in universe as well, so... Just headcannon it, its fun.
Isn't what is not objective stuff like: whether the LDB became the Archmage of Winterhold, or became the leader of the companions? Stuff like the existence of Altmer, the LDB beating Alduin are 100% objective, no?
Not really. The games are just representations of the actual TES universe, weather the protagonists did particular quests, what race and gender they were, is left vague. Like obviously whiterun isn't 15 huts in universe, 90% of the population isnt bandits, and so on.
Stuff like the existence of Altmer, the LDB beating Alduin are 100% objective, no?
Are the existence of high elves not objective?
In a sense, no, just as we could say the existence of birds is not 100% a given IRL. But, for the sake of communication, in real life and in TES it is safe to make assumptions about such things. But really, if you really care about 100% canonical constancy, than TES probably isn't for you.
I don't care about 100% consistency; I've admitted that stuff like Archmage of Winterhold is left up in the air. There has to be a baseline consistency though, otherwise the universe would just be a nonsensical mess.
Earlier you said to another commenter:
No, the dunmer’s skin was turned to ash (blueish-gray, and thier original skin color was gold-brown) for the tribunal’s betrayal of Azura at red Mountain (a volcano). Azura’s actions are not good (she is known for being venguful when slighted), the deities of TES are not the arbiters of morality in this universe, this is not in anyway an association of black skin with evil.
The elder scrolls universe isn't a nonsensical mess because a certain baseline consistency is established. We both believe the dunmer exist, we both believe deities are not the arbiters of morality in the universe, we both acknowledge that dragonrend cannot be used by dragons. Even the soul as dragon thing you believe in is at least metaphorically sound. We aren't sitting here claiming that Nazeem single-handedly defeated Alduin at the Soul Cairn because such a claim would be so far off the base establishment.
What about the Agent from Daggerfall? If we're assuming endgame of all heroes, he technically has Numidium with him (can't control it though) due to posessing the Mantella.
Am I a bad geek if I don't really get "who would win" debates? Like I don't see the appeal at all.
No. Some people like it, some people don't. It's interesting to me because I'm curious about power mechanics of a given universe.
I'm assuming by "main character" you mean player character. If not that complicates it a hundredfold.
Probably the Oblivion main character, but only post-Shivering Isles once they mantle Sheogorath. Mantling is the process by which one may become another by performing certain acts and/or feats and essentially gaining that person's powers, visage and personality.
Base-game it's probably the Dragonborn due to their access to the Voice and their connection to Akatosh, Dragon-God of Time. During the main story, they're even able to go back in time via the use of an Elder Scroll which they're able to read without training or going blind (permanently anyway). They're probably the most Divine Driven of the heroes.
1-3 are just kinda Imperial agents and such, sent on a mission to complete. Though TES III is kind of complicated where your mission is to attempt to fulfill a prophecy, so you're kind of an agent but also kind of the reborn soul of a long-lost hero destined to save Morrowind, whether you're actually the hero or just someone who managed to fulfill the criteria is left up to the player to decide. Though the Nerevarine did also kill a god but her powers were waning anyway, as were their other potential godly victim. Dagoth Ur is also another self-proclaimed god so I guess you kill three throughout the course of the whole game and expansions.
Is Alduin>Sheogorath? If so couldn't you make the claim that since LDB>Alduin, then LDB>Sheogorath?
Alduin was prophecised to be destroyed by the Last Dragonborn and sent by Akatosh for this purpose. Alduin failed in his duty of ending the world and bringing in the new one and so this is his punishment. He doesn't even technically die in Skyrim, merely defeated, as he is the only Dragon you kill whose soul you do not absorb.
The LDB is kind of tailor-made to destroy Alduin, the same can't be said for Daedric Princes. Even in ESO when you "kill" Molag Bal with the power of both Meridia and Akatosh he is still alive but merely diminished in power for a time. Even the lesser Daedra don't seem to truly die but instead return to the Chaotic Creatia where they are reshaped or reformed.
In Bloodmoon, Hircine doesn't even let you fight his true form in the name of fairness. You only fight an aspect of your choosing and even then they're one of the strongest entities in the game.
Here's an example of the Oblivion MC attacking Sheogorath in their own realm as well.
I'm so tired of motherfuckers who don't know shit about fantasy and who don't care about fantasy calling the whole concept of fantasy inherently reactionary, such a ridiculous stigma around fantasy as a whole. Also no, Tolkien did not invent fantasy, and most modern fantasy is NOT primarily Tolkein inspired, but Wheel of Time inspired, TES included, so you can't just be like, "Tolkien's stuff is fash, so all fantasy is fash !!!"
i have been a commie most my life, ive been a fantasy nerd for just as long... you guys know that you can enjoy something without it being like... apart of your ego right? like i hate to break it to you, but were all human, were the same people... i understand you might fear that aspect of humanity, but you are apart of that wether or not you like it.
its not fascist jesus christ. its fucking magic
No the only way to judge art is didacticly. That way I know I'm based and that's what matters.
I agree that a lot of modern fantasy is WoT-inspired, but WoT is very clearly Tolkien-inspired, so this seems like a distinction without a difference to me.
And I say this as someone who found LotR quite boring and its characters wooden. (The Hobbit was good, though.)
EDIT: To be clear, I actually agree with your overall take, and I wouldn't really call LotR fascist anyway.
My point is, fantasy evolves, its diverse, calling it all fash is dumb.
ok, but even if dialectically we needed a million shitty fantasys to make some good ones, isnt that kinda marxism?
no, but you dont magically go from Tolkien to Kirkbride, theres a process there
Disregard the elder scrolls, return to ultima underworld.
Just play ultima underworld. TES started as a rip off of that game.
Your first point isn't really about the Elder Scrolls itself, but on weather a piece of media depicting something is endorsing it, and that is beyond the scope of my post, but also, beyond the surface level of what is presented in Skyrim, the politics of TES are quite good by fantasy standards.
Your second point is just incredibly wrong on so many levels, the LBD cannot take on the Dominion by themselves, that's absurd, and again you criticize the fact that the "correct" political option isn't presented to you in a piece of media so its bad, which I think is just a bad way of looking at fiction in general.
I also wish I could secure a home for the reachmen. It's unfortunate that I still have to kill or run away from forewsorn even after helping them get out of the silverblood mine.
Weren't the elves turned black as punishment for their sins? That's pretty fucked up writing if you ask me
No, the dunmer's skin was turned to ash (blueish-gray, and thier original skin color was gold-brown) for the tribunal's betrayal of Azura at red Mountain (a volcano). Azura's actions are not good (she is known for being venguful when slighted), the deities of TES are not the arbiters of morality in this universe, this is not in anyway an association of black skin with evil.
