I dunno, I've just noticed little comments and things here and there on Chapo and TrueAnon for example that kinda gives me the impression that they either don't take the subject seriously or don't care.
I also kinda feel this way about body shaming and class shaming (which often intersects with physical/mental disabilities) You see this a lot when people are mocking fascists for being "fat," "neckbeards," living at home with their parents, etc. I think it that type of rhetoric can make our comrades feel like they're not welcome and I think it also has the effect of associating a look with political ideology. It's also the same type of rhetoric that fascists use to try to discredit leftists (e.g. all leftists are socially awkward basement dwellers with blue hair). And yeah, I've seen plenty of leftists use the R slur and the A slur. It's not cool.
Yeah, people really are alienating potential comrades by mocking their appearance (or tons of other characteristics) and equating it to opposing political ideologies.
Leftists who do this are putting inflicting ego damage & humiliating their foes over solidarity for their comrades. Reactionaries' social views should give them more than enough content to bully them with.
yep
it fuckin sucks
the other side of it is when you joke about your own mental illness and a well meaning comrade chastises you for being ableist...
against yourselfA lot of leftists have only scratched the surface of critiques against not just capitalism, but society as a whole. Nobody is forcing them to read theory so they think that paraphrasing capital’s main arguments, make them the ultimate leftist.
definitely agree
people say the automoderator on r/latestagecapitalism goes too far with its removal of ableist language (its probably the strictest place ive seen in that regard) and i always saw lots of people railing against it there, but it made me acutely aware of just how much of that sort of language i had internalised and really actually pushed me to be more mindful of what im saying and actively work to avoid using those sorts of terms outside of that sub as well
also now going back and looking at r*ddit non-leftist meme subs etc that i used to kinda like when im bored and how absolutely riddled they are with ableist language that i never actively picked up on previously (among their myriad other faults)
i think its probably the same thought processes as for the pronoun struggle session, of deeply-ingrained reddit-and-south-park-brain in young people in the west (including the western left) and some people (also including leftists) taking it as an outrageous personal attack and pc gone too far etc and making it a weird hill they want to die on that theyre asked to make some minor alterations in their interactions for the sake of not being exclusionary to a particular group of people
The best part about the strict filters is that it creates a barrier to entry to talk about these issues, because you have to know the correct language to discuss them in. It significantly improves the signal/noise ratio, where noise is the typical "I don't understand these ideas therefore they're wrong" and "You will never reach working people if you expect them to learn how to not be racist/ableist/etc!" and my favorite "This one time a 'woke' person on the internet was cringe and/or mean to me so I don't have to listen to you"
This rubbed me the wrong way. I don't know if you necessarily meant to, but it felt like my concerns were kinda just brushed off cuz "Well everyone uses that language, even you if you stopped lying to yourself Mr. Goodboy.".
I myself (and probably most people here) have used inappropriate language that we've now stopped using. It's cool to trip up, as long as we're open accepting our mistakes and improving.
I don't know what to say, except maybe try not to take it personally, and anyways have the mindset of doing better. Honestly most comrades don't want to shit on you when you make an error.
It actually was a diagnosis in pre-modern times. Same as fool actually.
You know how we stolped saying the R word but people sometines use "special" as in special ed as an insult?
So long as there are terms to describe things people will misuse them recreationally
The best litmus test for if someone is ableist wrt neurodivergent people is how they talk about furries. No joke. If you dont at least respect furries, I cant take you seriously as a comrade that wants liberation for everybody.
This reads like irony, but I'll presume you're serious.
What association with ableism does respecting furries carry beyond tolerance for culture/experiences you don't understand? I assume the Venn diagram of ableists and anti-furry crusaders is approximately a circle, but I don't think its particularly more predictive than being any other type of closed-minded shitbag.
Furries don't deserve the hate they receive and should be respected as anyone else, but I'm not sure I feel right elevating respect for a fairly expensive, niche hobby to "liberation". I'm neurodivergent, and I'd be pretty peeved if someone likened my struggles to wearing a costume.
I think we found the new struggle session to tear the site apart over
This would be an old struggle session, we already had a furry struggle session in the discord before the site was finished.
Please no. I just went away for a while because of the annoying car battery meme. Could we just get a /c/strugglesession so it can at least be contained?
Don't run away from the posting wars you charge head first into the trenches of the posting wars ya daffodile, if you don't like a meme you outmeme it with your own memes to the point the other memes are outnumbered and out gunned by the ocean of memes you outproduced them in!
I mean, they just said it's a litmus test, IE a good indicator. Ultimately I think it's because the entire case for being anti-furry is simply "it's cringe". There was a good post from an SRA co founder addressing this on their subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/SocialistRA/comments/gczti9/lets_have_a_chat_about_cringe/
How does all that tie into neurodivergency? The neurodivergent are unimaginably more likely to take part in or like activities that those that are not neurodivergent will find unusual, different, and therefore "cringe". This means that the acceptance of one is an extremely strong indicator for the acceptance of the other. The rejection of one is an extremely strong indicator for being a bit of a shit to the other. People react negatively to them for similar reasons, behaviour that is outside of the normal expected social behaviours and norms.
It can be off-putting to some people. Furries aren't a protected class lmfao
Whenever I see someone say "Furries aren't a protected class," the unspoken conclusion is usually "and therefore it's okay to harass them, dox them, sabotage their projects, DDOS their websites, steal their money, and generally just try to make their lives worse."
I'm not saying that's your intent here, but my history with that statement has less-than-good implications.
Whenever I see someone say “Furries aren’t a protected class,” the unspoken conclusion is usually “and therefore it’s okay to harass them, dox them, sabotage their projects, DDOS their websites, steal their money, and generally just try to make their lives worse.”
It's really not.
"I'm not a dog person" doesn't mean I want all dogs to die horribly. This is where some leftists start losing me. It's like how libs like to strawman every criticism of their party.
I think the argument isn't that it isn't off-putting to many, but rather it would best serve our comrades & thus our efforts by refraining from proclaiming that publicly, especially within leftist spaces.
Is fat-shaming cool too because it's not a protected class?
Yes, I cringe at some things I see too, but why ridicule when I'm the one who doesn't understand it?
Ultimately I think it’s because the entire case for being anti-furry is simply “it’s cringe”.
Agreed. That was a great post and definitely exemplifies how we alienate comrades. It's punishing people who deviate from social norms, which is ultimately reactionary.
I mean, they just said it’s a litmus test, IE a good indicator.
She said the best litmus test, and I don't see it as any more of an indicator than most other reactionary views. Given there's a non negligible number of typically not ableist leftists who call furry stuff cringe, I would've argued it's less indicative had you not made a solid argument as to why neurodivergence would be more prevalent in communities like furries.
Neurodivergence is also empirically more represented in the furry community for that matter. Off the top of my head, furries are something like 4 times more likely to have autism. It's also a majority queer community (if we consider that to either be neurodivergence or to otherwise be relevant for the same reasons) with only about 20% of the fandom identifying as heterosexual.
It's not that they are more disadvantaged or anything, it's just a vibe to judge the person being a dick to them.
As a furry this feels like a stretch
That's a good thing no?
This is weirdly true, as I got more left I consciously became more accepting of furries
The counterpoint here is that furry posting is explicitly allowed her despite the volcel police. We don't need shirtless huge muscular anthro wolves any more than we need shirtless huge muscular humans
You've got it backwards. NSFW furry posting is explicitly forbidden (on c/furry), while NSFW people can be posted on almost any community as long as it's tagged.
Uh, I do think a lot of the scorn some internet places have for furries is gross, and I have no problem with furries, even know a few IRL.
But most furries I've meet, online and real life, describe it like it's a hobby, a hobby that is also sometimes a sexual kink but not always. I wouldn't compare that to a disability. And I like lite mocking of people's hobbies is generally fine, I mean people do it all the time. I do home brewing and people give me shit for being a breaded white douche who probably listens to Fleet Foxes, and hey, guilty as charged.
I bought a promo copy of Helplessness blues on vinyl because a girl I was interested in ten years ago mentioned she liked them and I wanted to see if I would. It's.not really my jam and now every time I skim my record collection I see it and think about how that was a double strike out. Wish it was worth something so I could sell it and get that new Grateful Dead box set that just came out.
I think that's true, but the main post of the test is that you're not going to immediately go on some tirade about furries being "removed" or bring them up out of nowhere to make fun. A well placed joke that's actually funny is probably ok with the right context and audience.
I've heard that the furry community has a (very) significant number of queer and nd people within it which is the main reason you wouldn't want to go too hard on them. It might be the only place they feel comfortable being themselves.
cause everyone finds foot porn a litle sexy. maybe you don't like feet, but they are attached to an attractive humans. Furry porn is quite literally alien. So while we might understand but scorn feet guys. Airplane inflation sonic people are unknowable to us.
I'm generally kinky, but feet are like the most sexually neutral body part to me. I'm not opposed to sucking toes, but it's as alien as wanting to fuck a shin imo.
I knew a furry who had been to furry orgies. When they told me, the appeal of furry porn clicked. Getting hot remembering prior sexual experiences and fantasizing about future ones seems to be pretty common. Same with roleplay.
I don't know enough about furries to make an assessment, but I don't think the sexual component is a thing for all or even most furries.
People like having sex. People that would otherwise not be in the same place at the same time. And they have the costume to mask bodily insecurities and provide anonymity, reducing social inhibition. At least that's my guess.
Tho these questions would probably be better directed towards a furry, not a guy who has had a few conversations about it with one.
This is more or less correct. Quite a lot of it is just that at any meetup of an interest group people are gonna fuck. It also helps that the furry community is disproportionately gay (like, VERY DISPROPORTIONATELY GAY, as in STRAIGHTS ARE A MINORITY, which is extremely based) -- makes it quite a bit easier to find interested partners when it's mostly dudes anyways.
I would disagree with your first point. I found foot porn more off-putting than furry porn in general. Furry porn is just a little to the left of what I think is attractive, I can see all the parts and know what people like/dislike. Feet are the least sexual part of the body for me, I cannot comprehend being turned on by them in any capacity.
Feet are the least sexual part of the body for me, I cannot comprehend being turned on by them in any capacity.
I am pretty sure that's half the point. There are two sides to it, those that enjoy imposing their sexualisation of a part of a person that the owner of the foot might not want sexualised (thus it is "naughty" to do so) and those that enjoy being on the receiving end of a person sexualising that body part and some element of shame coming from that. Both are tied to shame/violation kinks, either creating it in another person or receiving it.
I really do not think that is the case. Besides, seeing as I have neither of those kinks, this further disproves the idea that anyone can find foot porn a little sexy.
Buddy, you're either going to go down a rabbit hole or spend the rest of your life knowing that something will always elude you
There are plenty of rabbit holes I am in and plenty of things I know will elude me for my entire life
And I can confidentially say on this topic this is neither one
Strange. In my experience the majority of furry hate is homophobia but more socially acceptable. They use the same exact terms, their objections and arguments are identical, it feels like the same thing.
So I associate it with that, and not with ableism specifically.
I don't dislike furries, I just think they should have anime waifuisms like normal people do.
The something awful anti furry part of my life was when I was most reactionary. However, counterpoint 4chan.
Idk if I fully agree with you furry theory but even for things that seem beyond wild to me I ask myself "does this activity of theirs negatively affect others in a meaningful way" and the answer unless it's like fascists or something is pretty much always no and so even though I'm not a fan of the fandom it pisses me off when people are dicks to furries just because they're social norms are different than another's. Same goes for anyone or anything. Even as a little kid when people would make fun of those hyper tattooed people with split tongue or reptilian like alterations I always thought "who gives a shit, as long as they like it why does anyone care so much"
If I can't yiff, I don't want to be part of your revolution.
spoiler
i'm a furry so I do get to make this joke
we need a modern day justin bieber / Rebecca black as a new litmus test imo
They really don’t. I think he (Adam?) once did like accidentally by joking about people who buy pre-cut vegetables at the grocery store but it was pointed out that many disabled or elderly people buy those and he apologized on the next episode. They’re pretty darn good about stuff like that.
They absolutely don't miss. They have awe-inspiring cancel-dodging abilities.
Much like trans issues, ableism is very hard to get people to empathise with until they actually know people affected by the issue that they care about. Trans issues have got easier and easier with massively more trans people coming out than previously, the visibility and people wanting to discuss it has helped.
This is hard because people don't really get "out" with ableism and do not have a nation-like community like lgbt with which to get support in fighting the social current and telling people around them to stop doing [thing that's bad] each time they do it.
Outside of very pronounced issues visibility is pretty low for neurodivergent people.
Yes, I feel you comrade
(also, shoutout to !neurodiverse@hexbear.net )
I know the Chapos have also used "autistic" as an insult on serval occasions, at least in their earlier episodes.
True story: I managed to end up at the bar with them after a show, and Amber mentioned how Felix was autistic a couple of times, like it was somehow amusing. She didn't know that I am myself autistic. Was kinda weird.
Edit: wow that bot is fast lol
It was in reference to an actual tweet or something yeah.
Still hate it whenever they use it though, even if I kinda remember the original context being funny. It was years ago though.
It seems to be lost in the aether, honestly.
Super vague memory of the original, and it's honestly probably not a good idea to use anything like that. Kinda whack with context, but without it just seems like you're being a shitter to bisexual people, neurodivergent people, and the double whammy to bisexual neurodivergent people.
People grow in hostile environments sometimes, me for example, I grew up with kids that would throw around ableist slurs like it was nothing (And some of them still do, despite being in their late 20s). It takes a lot of time and work to de-construct yourself from these manners, from these learned behaviours, so it's not surprising to see that some lefties just can't leave them behind.
Those who don't use ableist slurs and recognize it's importance must teach those who do not to do it anymore. Sankara said something like that, right? Teach teach and keep teaching.
True. I try not to be overly harsh on people that slip up, because we all have different circumstances. Good on you to do better so early in your life.
I think it comes with the dirtbag leftist territory. We're used to being pretty brash, I'd imagine a lot of us are looking out for our disabled comrades and don't want to put them down but we are used to our ways. I've actually been making it a point to cut out the ableist language myself thanks to the new rules around here.
Which itself is a problematic term in this context, to say the least…
On the other hand, at a certain point any insult of someone's intelligence is going to brush up against actual developmental disabilities, so the best strategy is tailoring your insults to the rarest ones so as to offend the fewest people .
*AUTHOR'S NOTE: This is not the best strategy.
I have met several ppeople with patchygyra. You can't hurt their feelings. The parts of the brain that have feelings aren't wired up to the ears.
They are fairly common in some developing countries, so I guess the insult is not only ableist but also racist and classist.
On the other hand, I think the term is used as an analogy for a toxic idea that infests your mind rather than literal worms, now that I think about it.
Yeah kind of. Leftists as a whole have a few social just blind spots like any other group. I know a few leftists who fought in the guerrilla war that can't stand LGBT people and see women as emotionally fragile. Nearly everyone is a product of their culture and it can be hard to break from it.
