They're definitely altering Uyghur culture, at least. The area is pretty separatist while still being a part of China, which is even more of an issue given all the Silk Road stuff they're working on. The question for China, then, is how to remove that clash.
The American approach to this is military intervention, coups, drone strikes, etc. The Chinese approach is probably more like the Han assimilation you mentioned - China isn't going to kill all Uyghurs or make them give up their faith, Xi has said as much and they are still Chinese citizens. IMO, it still feels like imperialism, and China isn't developing the area for altruistic reasons, but in all likelyhood the quality of life for Uyghurs will improve as they're assimilated, not entirely unlike American immigrants tend to do, and comparing it to the Holocaust is sickening.
theyre teaching socialist law in these "concentration camps", this is incompatible with treating women as second class citizens, if that is social imperialism its a very understandable form of it...
xinjiang has been explicitly mentioned by us mlitary as a target and one of our reasons for being in afganistan and its central to chinas development plan (BRI).
There are seperatists groups and the chinese state does persue groups that carry out attacks and there has been state repression in response
it still feels like imperialism, and China isn’t developing the area for altruistic reasons
There's a word for this: cultural genocide. And it's generally regarded as a bad thing, regardless of economic intentions or outcomes. I'm not gonna say that's what China's doing here, because no one knows anything about what's happening for some reason, but I will say that's a lot what this looks like.
Hahaha uh huh. I'm not sure how to argue against this, tbh. It's too blind to imperialism and colonialism I'm not sure where to start. I think the point is that the people aren't 'developing', they're 'being developed' in a way that is making their culture disappear. Most notably language, which is the classic canary in the genocidal coal mine.
Maybe you could offer your personal definition of cultural genocide?
The Armenian Genocide Museum defines cultural genocide as "acts and measures undertaken to destroy nations' or ethnic groups' culture through spiritual, national, and cultural destruction." wiki
I do not see that in Xinjiang.
When you talk about language, why is it bad for Uyghurs to learn Mandarin if that helps them better integrate and understand wider society?
For example, wouldn't it be better if migrants in the US who only speak Spanish were taught English so they can better interact with the rest of the population?
Additionally, that doesn't mean that your language is now banned either, just that your horizon broadens.
I mean, I don't complain about being taught English as a 2nd language at school.
Westerners are projecting their fucked up dynamics of race, culture, and language onto China instead of actually understanding the dynamics there ont heir own terms.
Shut the fuck up, you dumb piece of shit. Jesus. People are saying it's more complicated than your euro-centric, western media-addled brain. Disingenuous fucking hack.
People were saying that upthread, and other people were pointing out reasons that that's probably not true- but that is where the conversation was.
My point here isn't to say "they're not allowing people to learn their language", it's that we should refute that argument on the basis of whether that is or isn't happening, not on the basis that that wouldn't actualy be repression, which was how I took what you said.
Upvoting despite thinking you're going a little overboard with the "canary in the genocidal coal mine", because this is a difficult and important question. The solution here isn't obvious/simple, so I don't think people should be attacking each other so viciously.
There're many trade offs here (shit, I sound like a fucking economist). Spreading a lingua franca to a poor area to give people access to world literature, education, the ability to travel and pursue a better profession vs. saving a potentially endangered language. Promoting a more cosmopolitan, tolerant, egalitarian, modern culture vs. preserving a unique culture, avoiding disrupting existing families and ancient ways of life. Accelerating development vs. protecting a pristine environment and a less energy-intensive rural economy.
There are winners and losers in either scenario. If you imagine yourself as a young Uighur - would you want to destroy the old ways or remain backward? Leap forward into the great unknown or embrace the life you know and love? It's a genuinely hard choice.
I would conclude that some version of change, development, globalization is inevitable, at least in our current world. If Uighurs don't learn Mandarin, they'll learn English instead, which is even further away from their roots. Sweden making every Swede study English isn't genocide - so this isn't either. But at the same time such change should happen gradually, voluntarily. When it happens forcefully, it breeds rejection and resentment. Force IS justified if there are threats of fundamentalist/terrorist groups though, especially when they're backed by Americans and Saudis - the Uighur fighters, coming from China, were some of the most extreme in the Syrian Civil War, for instance. It's not a made-up threat.
It's also hard to make conclusions about what's really going on in Xinjiang - boo the lack of Chinese transparency and propaganda from every Western source, boooo!
There are just a bunch of red flags to me which, in a low-information context, make me skeptical/critical. Which I understand is not a popular thing to do within the broader context of u.s.-china relations rn (like americans beating the trade war drum), which this conversation is apparently positioned within despite that I’m neither haha
I appreciate your perspective, though, and I agree that everything is a tradeoff. That’s the nature of decision-making in a complex world.
You’re right, I don’t know what I would want if I were a Uighur. I’m frankly unsure what the Uighurs themselves want when it comes to this. From what I’ve read, a lot of them don’t like the camps, or at least a lot of them don’t like what they have to trade away to have access to the camps. It does strike me that Uighur voices, to the extent we have access to them, are the most important piece of the conversation. But, I understand we can’t trust what we hear, so, again, I dunno.
I know from people in my life, though, who are fighting ongoing colonialism, that they want to both keep ‘the old ways’ and ‘move forward’, and that those two things are not diametrically opposed. All cultures grow and evolve constantly, the key difference between that and imperialism is self-determination. The extent to which that is happening here is... unclear.
I’m pretty much done talking about this here, tbh. It’s obviously an important conversation, but I don’t have the emotional capacity for this haha. Obviously I agree it’s complex and nuanced and that people shouldn’t be so vicious, but I think that is just the nature of any ‘China’ conversation on the left right now, so I’m heading out. Thanks for your insight, and for the compassion :af-heart:
All cultures grow and evolve constantly, the key difference between that and imperialism is self-determination. The extent to which that is happening here is… unclear.
Very well put! Couldn't have said it better myself. That's exactly my thinking.
Which I understand is not a popular thing to do within the broader context of u.s.-china relations rn (like americans beating the trade war drum), which this conversation is apparently positioned within despite that I’m neither haha
Yes, I'd be a lot more critical of China if the US media weren't constantly demonizing China for... existing, not just making questionable power moves.
I don’t have the emotional capacity for this
Totally understandable. Fighting is no fun. Cheers!
Thank you for the reminder, comrade haha not one of my most popular takes on this site ig. At least I got some other comments in here that ppl liked so people know I'm not just being a disingenuous anti-China person
The most basic, seemingly reliable facts about what’s happening:
schools in Xinxiang don’t teach the Uighur’s language
the camps and a lot of the development are focussed on sinicizing the Uighurs, explicitly
the main form of assimilation is making the Uighur’s ‘fit into the economy’, as if they’re not fine just how they are thank you very much haha
the Chinese government had consistently claimed the camps were about ‘combatting terrorism’, before pivoting to ‘it’s all about skills training and cultural assimilation etc.’
This is all pretty basic stuff that I think all ‘sides’ agree upon. And different people will read this differently, but to me it absolutely screams cultural genocide.
I don't think that's accurate though, according to what I've seen the schools are teaching Uyghur in schools still, and the camps are focused on jobs training. The whole combating of terrorism and skills training fit hand in hand with it there. You can see more here: https://medium.com/@sunfeiyang/breaking-down-the-bbcs-visit-to-hotan-xinjiang-e284934a7aab
I read that piece a while ago, thanks hahaha. No one is certain if the camps are voluntary, there’s no way to know that. And there’s a lot of evidence they aren’t.
Frankly, I see no reason to give the Chinese state the benefit of the doubt on this, just as many here see no reason not to.
Ultimately, there is too much we don’t know, which is damning in its own right imo.
I mean I'd assume that the streets aren't empty should prove that Zenz is a fucking liar and to err on the side of believing that the Chinese government isn't doing something heinous since they never have before to other minority populations at least as far as I'm aware
Zenz isn’t the only human on earth saying there’s something not quite right happening in XinJiang, despite what a lot of people seem to believe. He’s a major source, and one to be ignored, but he’s not literally the only source haha. And I knew he would come up, which is why in my list comment here I tried to stick to things that the Chinese government had explicitly stated themselves.
He isn't, but they lean on him very heavily, and I haven't seen many other prevailing anti-Chinese sources on Xinjiang in Western media. All the ones I've seen are anti-Communist.
the Chinese government had consistently claimed the camps were about ‘combatting terrorism’, before pivoting to ‘it’s all about skills training and cultural assimilation etc.’
Yeah this is more or less the case with specific regional dialects of Mandarin. It fuckin sucks but you're correct in saying that those dialects are still taught and learned at home. With regard to other languages, as opposed to dialects, I'm pretty sure that autonomous regions and historically minority-inhabited areas teach in both the minority language and Mandarin.
except ughyur culture isnt being targeted... but there are armed separatist groups that have killed at least a thousand people in a series of attacks and 5000 went to syria to fight for ISIS
some aspects of islam are disctinctly reactionary, this is true of every major religion and especially christianity, but in a socialist country religion should be freely acessible to all of the people, women's religous freedoms come before cultural rights that say they cannot be inams or must obey their husbands
china is handling a more serious terrorist threat than any western nation with much less violence and while promoting ugyhur and general muslim cultural themes in the region (in part as a diplomatic tool to appeal to central asian countries coupled with the BRI)
i think if we disregard cia sourced hit pieces emerging at the peak of american crisis its hasty and ignorant to call this genocide
Historically cultural genocide has been done in the name of nebulous but nice sounding ideas like 'progress,' 'civilisation,' or 'modernisation.' So you're again at the point of: What is the driving ideology? Does China still expect the non han to become sedentary rice farmers? Are they attempting to do this by force sedentarisation? The latter would actually explain how you get millions in something that could be described as camps.
They're definitely altering Uyghur culture, at least. The area is pretty separatist while still being a part of China, which is even more of an issue given all the Silk Road stuff they're working on. The question for China, then, is how to remove that clash.
The American approach to this is military intervention, coups, drone strikes, etc. The Chinese approach is probably more like the Han assimilation you mentioned - China isn't going to kill all Uyghurs or make them give up their faith, Xi has said as much and they are still Chinese citizens. IMO, it still feels like imperialism, and China isn't developing the area for altruistic reasons, but in all likelyhood the quality of life for Uyghurs will improve as they're assimilated, not entirely unlike American immigrants tend to do, and comparing it to the Holocaust is sickening.
theyre teaching socialist law in these "concentration camps", this is incompatible with treating women as second class citizens, if that is social imperialism its a very understandable form of it...
xinjiang has been explicitly mentioned by us mlitary as a target and one of our reasons for being in afganistan and its central to chinas development plan (BRI).
There are seperatists groups and the chinese state does persue groups that carry out attacks and there has been state repression in response
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Uyghur_unrest
There's a word for this: cultural genocide. And it's generally regarded as a bad thing, regardless of economic intentions or outcomes. I'm not gonna say that's what China's doing here, because no one knows anything about what's happening for some reason, but I will say that's a lot what this looks like.
Well then by that definition any development of a specific region with a distinct culture is cultural genocide.
I don't think that that is helpful.
Hahaha uh huh. I'm not sure how to argue against this, tbh. It's too blind to imperialism and colonialism I'm not sure where to start. I think the point is that the people aren't 'developing', they're 'being developed' in a way that is making their culture disappear. Most notably language, which is the classic canary in the genocidal coal mine.
Maybe you could offer your personal definition of cultural genocide?
Not my definition:
I do not see that in Xinjiang.
When you talk about language, why is it bad for Uyghurs to learn Mandarin if that helps them better integrate and understand wider society?
For example, wouldn't it be better if migrants in the US who only speak Spanish were taught English so they can better interact with the rest of the population?
Additionally, that doesn't mean that your language is now banned either, just that your horizon broadens.
I mean, I don't complain about being taught English as a 2nd language at school.
Westerners are projecting their fucked up dynamics of race, culture, and language onto China instead of actually understanding the dynamics there ont heir own terms.
lol @ ppl claiming racism doesn't exist in China
Shut the fuck up, you dumb piece of shit. Jesus. People are saying it's more complicated than your euro-centric, western media-addled brain. Disingenuous fucking hack.
Half of your comment: "Shut the fuck up, you dumb piece of shit. Jesus... Disingenuous fucking hack."
There's a difference between being taught Mandarin and not being taught the Uyghur language.
I agree with your point broadly, but it's worth keeping a more open mind considering what (varying degrees of) repression of a culture can look like
Who says that in Xinjiang they are not being taught their local language anymore?
People were saying that upthread, and other people were pointing out reasons that that's probably not true- but that is where the conversation was.
My point here isn't to say "they're not allowing people to learn their language", it's that we should refute that argument on the basis of whether that is or isn't happening, not on the basis that that wouldn't actualy be repression, which was how I took what you said.
Upvoting despite thinking you're going a little overboard with the "canary in the genocidal coal mine", because this is a difficult and important question. The solution here isn't obvious/simple, so I don't think people should be attacking each other so viciously.
There're many trade offs here (shit, I sound like a fucking economist). Spreading a lingua franca to a poor area to give people access to world literature, education, the ability to travel and pursue a better profession vs. saving a potentially endangered language. Promoting a more cosmopolitan, tolerant, egalitarian, modern culture vs. preserving a unique culture, avoiding disrupting existing families and ancient ways of life. Accelerating development vs. protecting a pristine environment and a less energy-intensive rural economy.
There are winners and losers in either scenario. If you imagine yourself as a young Uighur - would you want to destroy the old ways or remain backward? Leap forward into the great unknown or embrace the life you know and love? It's a genuinely hard choice.
I would conclude that some version of change, development, globalization is inevitable, at least in our current world. If Uighurs don't learn Mandarin, they'll learn English instead, which is even further away from their roots. Sweden making every Swede study English isn't genocide - so this isn't either. But at the same time such change should happen gradually, voluntarily. When it happens forcefully, it breeds rejection and resentment. Force IS justified if there are threats of fundamentalist/terrorist groups though, especially when they're backed by Americans and Saudis - the Uighur fighters, coming from China, were some of the most extreme in the Syrian Civil War, for instance. It's not a made-up threat.
It's also hard to make conclusions about what's really going on in Xinjiang - boo the lack of Chinese transparency and propaganda from every Western source, boooo!
There are just a bunch of red flags to me which, in a low-information context, make me skeptical/critical. Which I understand is not a popular thing to do within the broader context of u.s.-china relations rn (like americans beating the trade war drum), which this conversation is apparently positioned within despite that I’m neither haha
I appreciate your perspective, though, and I agree that everything is a tradeoff. That’s the nature of decision-making in a complex world.
You’re right, I don’t know what I would want if I were a Uighur. I’m frankly unsure what the Uighurs themselves want when it comes to this. From what I’ve read, a lot of them don’t like the camps, or at least a lot of them don’t like what they have to trade away to have access to the camps. It does strike me that Uighur voices, to the extent we have access to them, are the most important piece of the conversation. But, I understand we can’t trust what we hear, so, again, I dunno.
I know from people in my life, though, who are fighting ongoing colonialism, that they want to both keep ‘the old ways’ and ‘move forward’, and that those two things are not diametrically opposed. All cultures grow and evolve constantly, the key difference between that and imperialism is self-determination. The extent to which that is happening here is... unclear.
I’m pretty much done talking about this here, tbh. It’s obviously an important conversation, but I don’t have the emotional capacity for this haha. Obviously I agree it’s complex and nuanced and that people shouldn’t be so vicious, but I think that is just the nature of any ‘China’ conversation on the left right now, so I’m heading out. Thanks for your insight, and for the compassion :af-heart:
Very well put! Couldn't have said it better myself. That's exactly my thinking.
Yes, I'd be a lot more critical of China if the US media weren't constantly demonizing China for... existing, not just making questionable power moves.
Totally understandable. Fighting is no fun. Cheers!
:heart-sickle:
that ratio fam
Thank you for the reminder, comrade haha not one of my most popular takes on this site ig. At least I got some other comments in here that ppl liked so people know I'm not just being a disingenuous anti-China person
lol its all good fam I think you came around to a good faith eventually which I appreciate, just later on in the thread 😅
There's no cultural genocide happening, though, and the BBC tried really hard to make you think otherwise.
The most basic, seemingly reliable facts about what’s happening:
This is all pretty basic stuff that I think all ‘sides’ agree upon. And different people will read this differently, but to me it absolutely screams cultural genocide.
I don't think that's accurate though, according to what I've seen the schools are teaching Uyghur in schools still, and the camps are focused on jobs training. The whole combating of terrorism and skills training fit hand in hand with it there. You can see more here: https://medium.com/@sunfeiyang/breaking-down-the-bbcs-visit-to-hotan-xinjiang-e284934a7aab
I read that piece a while ago, thanks hahaha. No one is certain if the camps are voluntary, there’s no way to know that. And there’s a lot of evidence they aren’t.
Frankly, I see no reason to give the Chinese state the benefit of the doubt on this, just as many here see no reason not to.
Ultimately, there is too much we don’t know, which is damning in its own right imo.
I mean I'd assume that the streets aren't empty should prove that Zenz is a fucking liar and to err on the side of believing that the Chinese government isn't doing something heinous since they never have before to other minority populations at least as far as I'm aware
Zenz isn’t the only human on earth saying there’s something not quite right happening in XinJiang, despite what a lot of people seem to believe. He’s a major source, and one to be ignored, but he’s not literally the only source haha. And I knew he would come up, which is why in my list comment here I tried to stick to things that the Chinese government had explicitly stated themselves.
He isn't, but they lean on him very heavily, and I haven't seen many other prevailing anti-Chinese sources on Xinjiang in Western media. All the ones I've seen are anti-Communist.
I mean, it's either Zenz or someone affiliated with NED, Turkey or the US.
You don't by chance have a source on that handy?
He seems to be the only one claiming 21 million people have been murdered though, which seems pretty easy to veryify either way.
this isn't contradictory
In fact, teaching people skills that will help them better integrate into society is a very good deterrent of terrorism
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Yeah this is more or less the case with specific regional dialects of Mandarin. It fuckin sucks but you're correct in saying that those dialects are still taught and learned at home. With regard to other languages, as opposed to dialects, I'm pretty sure that autonomous regions and historically minority-inhabited areas teach in both the minority language and Mandarin.
except ughyur culture isnt being targeted... but there are armed separatist groups that have killed at least a thousand people in a series of attacks and 5000 went to syria to fight for ISIS
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-mideast-crisis-syria-china/syria-says-up-to-5000-chinese-uighurs-fighting-in-militant-groups-idUSKBN1840UP]
some aspects of islam are disctinctly reactionary, this is true of every major religion and especially christianity, but in a socialist country religion should be freely acessible to all of the people, women's religous freedoms come before cultural rights that say they cannot be inams or must obey their husbands
https://time.com/3099950/china-muslim-hui-xinjiang-uighur-islam/
china is handling a more serious terrorist threat than any western nation with much less violence and while promoting ugyhur and general muslim cultural themes in the region (in part as a diplomatic tool to appeal to central asian countries coupled with the BRI)
i think if we disregard cia sourced hit pieces emerging at the peak of american crisis its hasty and ignorant to call this genocide
Historically cultural genocide has been done in the name of nebulous but nice sounding ideas like 'progress,' 'civilisation,' or 'modernisation.' So you're again at the point of: What is the driving ideology? Does China still expect the non han to become sedentary rice farmers? Are they attempting to do this by force sedentarisation? The latter would actually explain how you get millions in something that could be described as camps.