sorry to be a debbie downer here, but humans are not the most amazing thing ever, particularly for the reason that you say that we are. the idea that 'we believe theat our potential must be pursued to it's fullest extent' would be great if our potential wasn't as an invasive species. have you seen what humans have done to earth and how each billionaire has their own fucking space pet project? we need a fucking amazon on every god damn planet, asteroid, or moon. every space ship will be called a tesla, and if we find life in the galaxy, they will be ourslaves if they don't have enough technology. we can't even get along on our own fucking planet.
humans fucking suck. human kind was a mistake that the earth will eventually repudiate, and rightfully fucking so.
i'm responding to someone literally claiming that "humans are the greatest thing ever." i didn't say we were the worst, but we definitely ain't the fucking greatest.
Uh yeah we probably are given the fact that we allow ourselves to even conceive of greatness. anything you think of as great you do so thru your capacity as a human. therefore all greatness is human greatness. there isn’t anything outside the human perspective
this is almost certainly not true. various corvids and apes absolutely have a capacity to learn language while dolphins are incredibly sophisticated in this regard, communicating with each other in ways we are only just beginning to piece together. but this is I guess the point about the hubris of this sentiment: we do not understand the capacities of animals nearly so well to make statements like these.
okay so what is your defense of keeping them if it's a bad idea to present the fact that those who would down vote something/have been down voted have some kind of flawed ideology? why have a fucking currency here?
flawed ideologies lead to a fuckton of bad consequences. to me, that shit could be defined as pathetic. my ideology can definitely be gauged with fucking tangible numbers if the ideologies being compared are "humans suck" and "humans are the most amazing thing ever."
I agree, the point of quantifying human thought is to control it from the top down. The fact that chapeaux dot cat has voting despite it reenforcing the kind of hierarchies socialists fight so hard against proves Marx's thesis that "the lower phase of communism ... [will be] stamped with the mark of the old."
I've seen what capitalism has done to the Earth. I've seen what billionaires do. Humans are not capitalism. Humans are not the handful of billionaires who control us. That you can't even grasp that shows how deeply entrenched you are in ideology. Either go read a book that isn't Harry Potter, or leave us the fuck alone while we do more than rot and die in obese bliss.
my point is that nature can’t possibly be conceived as communism bc it’s literally free market hunting with the apex predators taking all the surplus value of the producers of energy not bc carnivores exist
Alright as much of an angry silly exchange this has been between you and paulwall it's been interesting to me.
He's being a smug dumbass about it but I still agree with the point that the entire framing of this seems nonsensical to me.
You can't apply purely human concept that are extremely contextual to those things. You can't say any of those things existed "before humans", it's not that nothing existed before humans, it's that our perception of things and the words and concepts we use are entirely limited to us and extrapolating them to other things in that way seems silly and ends up back into anthropo-centrism to me.
I'm not going into the "humans are special" because of language or whatever else because I don't know enough about it and it's a pointless argument because it doesn't matter to this. In fact the argument itself always ends up being anthropocentric to me, whether it's to say "other animals are not as smart/special as us" OR to say "other animals are as smart/special as us". It's applying our own extremely contextual words and concepts on things non-human, those other things don't give a fuck what words we use, no matter how smart they are. They exist outside of how we talk about them or how we think about them.
Whatever other animals can/do think and feel doesn't matter here, this kind of take still seems nihilistic and anthropo-centric. The whole idea of humans having a "good or bad" impact on earth is within a human context, the concept of earth is within a human context. If you end saying that "humanity" is "bad" and should end, then yea to me that's nihilistic, misanthropic (not that that makes it or you bad because of it that's just how I would define it), but more importantly it's pointless. It's an answer to a nonsensical question. It doesn't matter, it's not productive and it seems very self-centered.
This is kinda hard to talk about because it's not even a very tangible or materialistic topic, it's mostly philosophical, so sorry if my thoughts aren't very clear.
You can’t say any of those things existed “before humans”, it’s not that nothing existed before humans, it’s that our perception of things and the words and concepts we use are entirely limited to us and extrapolating them to other things in that way seems silly and ends up back into anthropo-centrism to me.
This is kinda hard to talk about because it’s not even a very tangible or materialistic topic, it’s mostly philosophical, so sorry if my thoughts aren’t very clear.
it's definitely hard to talk about, you will make no friends. but those things definitely exited 'before humans.'
i just don't even understand how any of this is debatable. you'd think that since we invented the fucking word 'language' that the idea is foreign throughout other species.
Whatever other animals can/do think and feel doesn’t matter here, this kind of take still seems nihilistis.
Whatever other animals can/do think and feel doesn’t matter here, this kind of take still seems nihilistic and anthropo-centric. The whole idea of humans having a “good or bad” impact on earth is within a human context, the concept of earth is within a human context.
this shit is on the level of 'animals can't feel pain' because they don't have the fucking words.
It is, Stupidpol are utter idiots, like, honestly I’m not into “wokeness” so if anything I’m genuinely viscerally disgusted by how ignorant the stupidpol crowd are. The comparison wasn’t actually to stupidpol but to leftypol.
This is barely any different from the human nature argument people use against communism. You look at human behavior under current conditions, and conclude "humans fucking suck." Yeah, everyone on this site can plainly see the ways that humans have destroyed the earth, made it unlivable even for ourselves, and are often generally shitty. But to see that and conclude that it must be an essential characteristic of the human race is reactionary. You need to ask WHY people are this way. Think materially comrade. And sure, many people are irredeemable at this point. That's not something to be forgiven, but it is something to be understood. Humans aren't born shitty, humans are made to be shitty.
the odds are that we simply don't have the time or means or will as a whole to redeem ourselves. it's not an argument that we shouldn't or can't, it's that we as a whole haven't and likely won't.
Ok if you're arguing that we can't get out of our current situation, I'm not going to argue with you there. I mean, I don't really agree but I will agree that things do feel hopeless and it is not clear how we will actually get out of the current crisis. So like, maybe we won't escape our current crisis and carve out a future for the species. But whose fault is that? Saying humans suck, humans are a mistake, throwing the species as a whole under the bus, obscures the historical and sociological circumstances that cause humans to "suck," and obscures the fact that the current crisis was not brought upon equally by all humans, but by certain classes of humans. One must understand why and how we got into our current situation, and it's not because humanity essentially "sucks."
We confront the attitude that humanity is essentially evil and a virus on a daily basis. People do suck, but to end thought there instead of challenging these essentialist ideas props up the attitude many people have that nothing can be done nor could ever have been done about our situation, and that it was always inevitable.
the intent isn't to dissuade people from organization or to increase apathy. fault the negative nature if you must, but it's no less conducive to the possibility of changing a situation than claiming that people are the most amazing thing in the universe, especially considering how people have used that idea to justify a lot of the heinous shit that human beings do.
That statement of humans being the greatest thing ever is in the context of a thread complaining about people using essentialist arguments to portray humans as essentially evil and use that to support not trying to change our situation. By saying humans are the greatest thing ever, you know I don't the person's exact intentions above, but by saying that one is countering these essentialist ideas and saying that no a better world is possible, humans can be better if we can just change material conditions, humans do not necessarily need to act the way we do under capitalism. Maybe humans are not literally the greatest thing ever, but it is a statement portraying humans as Subjects who are able to shape history. By going the opposite way and concluding that, no, humans actually do suck, you are precluding even the possibility of a better world, and any possibility that humans could act in any way different from today. It is a fatalistic position which precludes any action. I mean, yeah, recognize that humans have the capacity for evil and to suck and we're not perfect, but don't condemn us as mistakes who can never do better.
i'm sorry, humans are great. let's just keep this whole thing we've been doing going and pat ourselves on the back, because everything's just gonna be great. :D
Learn to love yourself and others; where there's pain there's also a possibility for healing. The world can be changed, our future will be difficult but the only reason it might be a horrible nightmare is because of Capitalism and the ruling by the oppressors. Your expression of self-defeat says more about you than about the future. Things can change, humans and society can change, old systems can be overthrown. This is a place for comrades, if you don't think the world can change for the better, then what the fuck are you even doing here?
the idea that "Human beings are the most amazing thing ever, and we do what we do because we believe that our potential must be pursued to its fullest extent" does not encourage a change in the system. if you encourage this mind set what the ufck are YOU doing here?
we do what we do because we believe that our potential must be pursued to its fullest extent
Actually from Marx who analyzes labor and declares it integral to the self-worth and innate drive by human beings, doing and working is as human as anything else. The question is what system do we operate under? If we do things for others and only a few people benefit then it is the system that's flawed.
I asked you a question. You are being a sourpuss and downright unlikeable person. The world sucks now, but it can change. If you think nothing will change, then you are a sectarian embracing the doom to put other people down. And it fucking sucks.
The rightist sectarian differs from his or her leftist counterpart in that the former attempts to domesticate the present so that (he or she hopes) the future will reproduce this domesticated present, while the latter considers the future pre-established—a kind of in-evitable fate, fortune, or destiny. For the rightist sectarian, "today," linked to the past, is something given and immutable; for the leftist sectarian, "tomorrow" is decreed beforehand, is inexorably preor-dained. This rightist and this leftist are both reactionary because, starting from their respectively false views of history, both develop forms of action that negate freedom. The fact that one person imag-ines a "well-behaved" present and the other a predetermined future does not mean that they therefore fold their arms and become spec-tators (the former expecting that the present will continue, the latter waiting for the already "known" future to come to pass)
Paolo Freire
You are extremely predictable and incredibly fucking boring. I hope you realize your shit-attitude does not make you unique, and you are amongst comrades who, somehow, want to make the world a better place. You can drop the hard-ass act.
me pointing out that humans ain't the most amazing thing in the world doesn't give you the right to lump me into some category worth of disdain and allow you the right to berate me.
you calling me 'predictable', 'fucking boring' and saying i have a 'shit -attitude' is fucking toxic, based on me taking issue with the statement "Human beings are the most amazing thing ever, and we do what we do because we believe that our potential must be pursued to its fullest extent"
sorry, that's completely bullshit. look up the definition of sectarian before you go throwing it around.
sorry to be a debbie downer here, but humans are not the most amazing thing ever, particularly for the reason that you say that we are. the idea that 'we believe theat our potential must be pursued to it's fullest extent' would be great if our potential wasn't as an invasive species. have you seen what humans have done to earth and how each billionaire has their own fucking space pet project? we need a fucking amazon on every god damn planet, asteroid, or moon. every space ship will be called a tesla, and if we find life in the galaxy, they will be ourslaves if they don't have enough technology. we can't even get along on our own fucking planet.
humans fucking suck. human kind was a mistake that the earth will eventually repudiate, and rightfully fucking so.
Alright dude then go join a death cult im not interested in hearing people's justifications for misanthropy
dude fuck you. you excuse everything humans have done to our fucking planet with a fucking slur.
edit: if you have upvoted the above post, and and downvoted this one, you are fucking pathetic.
you’re the one saying the whole species is fucked. this kind of bourgeois pessimism is reactionary and fucking annoying
i'm responding to someone literally claiming that "humans are the greatest thing ever." i didn't say we were the worst, but we definitely ain't the fucking greatest.
Uh yeah we probably are given the fact that we allow ourselves to even conceive of greatness. anything you think of as great you do so thru your capacity as a human. therefore all greatness is human greatness. there isn’t anything outside the human perspective
wow. i'm not even a vegetarian, but this is a great argument for becoming one. fuck off.
dude i’m a fucking vegetarian haha bc it’s our responsibility as the only linguistically capable beings to advocate for those not
this is almost certainly not true. various corvids and apes absolutely have a capacity to learn language while dolphins are incredibly sophisticated in this regard, communicating with each other in ways we are only just beginning to piece together. but this is I guess the point about the hubris of this sentiment: we do not understand the capacities of animals nearly so well to make statements like these.
Why aren't you vegan?
well then you should research the word perspective.
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then get rid of the fucking numbers all together.
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okay so what is your defense of keeping them if it's a bad idea to present the fact that those who would down vote something/have been down voted have some kind of flawed ideology? why have a fucking currency here?
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flawed ideologies lead to a fuckton of bad consequences. to me, that shit could be defined as pathetic. my ideology can definitely be gauged with fucking tangible numbers if the ideologies being compared are "humans suck" and "humans are the most amazing thing ever."
upvotes arent currency they are non-exchangeable and hold no monetary value bro
it's not about monetary value, value in itself is assigned by humans. what the fuck is the point of the fucking number then?
I agree, the point of quantifying human thought is to control it from the top down. The fact that chapeaux dot cat has voting despite it reenforcing the kind of hierarchies socialists fight so hard against proves Marx's thesis that "the lower phase of communism ... [will be] stamped with the mark of the old."
No, no buddy, fuck you
No. fuck you and everyone who thinks like you.
What slur
he's calling me a misanthropist for merely saying that humans aren't the 'most amazing thing on the fucking planet.'
First of all the word is misanthrope, not misanthropist.
Secondly that isn't a slur dipshit
they're using it as a slur asshole
Insult and slur are not interchangeable
Shut the fuck up you dumb piece of shit
eat shit mother fucker
I've seen what capitalism has done to the Earth. I've seen what billionaires do. Humans are not capitalism. Humans are not the handful of billionaires who control us. That you can't even grasp that shows how deeply entrenched you are in ideology. Either go read a book that isn't Harry Potter, or leave us the fuck alone while we do more than rot and die in obese bliss.
well... capitalism didn't exist before humans. guess what did? communism.
communism didn’t exist before humans what the fuck haha, predators totally be taking the surplus value of producers and prey
communism still has carnivores bro.
my point is that nature can’t possibly be conceived as communism bc it’s literally free market hunting with the apex predators taking all the surplus value of the producers of energy not bc carnivores exist
never heard of a pack huh
never heard of a pack of bourgeoisie? the state? you’re referring to a pack of predators or herbivores which still steal surplus value from plants
that's not how pack mentality works.
Alright as much of an angry silly exchange this has been between you and paulwall it's been interesting to me. He's being a smug dumbass about it but I still agree with the point that the entire framing of this seems nonsensical to me. You can't apply purely human concept that are extremely contextual to those things. You can't say any of those things existed "before humans", it's not that nothing existed before humans, it's that our perception of things and the words and concepts we use are entirely limited to us and extrapolating them to other things in that way seems silly and ends up back into anthropo-centrism to me.
I'm not going into the "humans are special" because of language or whatever else because I don't know enough about it and it's a pointless argument because it doesn't matter to this. In fact the argument itself always ends up being anthropocentric to me, whether it's to say "other animals are not as smart/special as us" OR to say "other animals are as smart/special as us". It's applying our own extremely contextual words and concepts on things non-human, those other things don't give a fuck what words we use, no matter how smart they are. They exist outside of how we talk about them or how we think about them.
Whatever other animals can/do think and feel doesn't matter here, this kind of take still seems nihilistic and anthropo-centric. The whole idea of humans having a "good or bad" impact on earth is within a human context, the concept of earth is within a human context. If you end saying that "humanity" is "bad" and should end, then yea to me that's nihilistic, misanthropic (not that that makes it or you bad because of it that's just how I would define it), but more importantly it's pointless. It's an answer to a nonsensical question. It doesn't matter, it's not productive and it seems very self-centered.
This is kinda hard to talk about because it's not even a very tangible or materialistic topic, it's mostly philosophical, so sorry if my thoughts aren't very clear.
it's definitely hard to talk about, you will make no friends. but those things definitely exited 'before humans.'
i just don't even understand how any of this is debatable. you'd think that since we invented the fucking word 'language' that the idea is foreign throughout other species.
Missed my point, but I don't really know where to go from there, so I don't think I'll keep the convo going. It was interesting though!
this shit is on the level of 'animals can't feel pain' because they don't have the fucking words.
There can be dumb takes on here sometimes like anywhere else, but comparing us to stupidpol is false equivalency.
It is, Stupidpol are utter idiots, like, honestly I’m not into “wokeness” so if anything I’m genuinely viscerally disgusted by how ignorant the stupidpol crowd are. The comparison wasn’t actually to stupidpol but to leftypol.
Sorry, misunderstood.
This is barely any different from the human nature argument people use against communism. You look at human behavior under current conditions, and conclude "humans fucking suck." Yeah, everyone on this site can plainly see the ways that humans have destroyed the earth, made it unlivable even for ourselves, and are often generally shitty. But to see that and conclude that it must be an essential characteristic of the human race is reactionary. You need to ask WHY people are this way. Think materially comrade. And sure, many people are irredeemable at this point. That's not something to be forgiven, but it is something to be understood. Humans aren't born shitty, humans are made to be shitty.
the odds are that we simply don't have the time or means or will as a whole to redeem ourselves. it's not an argument that we shouldn't or can't, it's that we as a whole haven't and likely won't.
Ok if you're arguing that we can't get out of our current situation, I'm not going to argue with you there. I mean, I don't really agree but I will agree that things do feel hopeless and it is not clear how we will actually get out of the current crisis. So like, maybe we won't escape our current crisis and carve out a future for the species. But whose fault is that? Saying humans suck, humans are a mistake, throwing the species as a whole under the bus, obscures the historical and sociological circumstances that cause humans to "suck," and obscures the fact that the current crisis was not brought upon equally by all humans, but by certain classes of humans. One must understand why and how we got into our current situation, and it's not because humanity essentially "sucks."
We confront the attitude that humanity is essentially evil and a virus on a daily basis. People do suck, but to end thought there instead of challenging these essentialist ideas props up the attitude many people have that nothing can be done nor could ever have been done about our situation, and that it was always inevitable.
the intent isn't to dissuade people from organization or to increase apathy. fault the negative nature if you must, but it's no less conducive to the possibility of changing a situation than claiming that people are the most amazing thing in the universe, especially considering how people have used that idea to justify a lot of the heinous shit that human beings do.
That statement of humans being the greatest thing ever is in the context of a thread complaining about people using essentialist arguments to portray humans as essentially evil and use that to support not trying to change our situation. By saying humans are the greatest thing ever, you know I don't the person's exact intentions above, but by saying that one is countering these essentialist ideas and saying that no a better world is possible, humans can be better if we can just change material conditions, humans do not necessarily need to act the way we do under capitalism. Maybe humans are not literally the greatest thing ever, but it is a statement portraying humans as Subjects who are able to shape history. By going the opposite way and concluding that, no, humans actually do suck, you are precluding even the possibility of a better world, and any possibility that humans could act in any way different from today. It is a fatalistic position which precludes any action. I mean, yeah, recognize that humans have the capacity for evil and to suck and we're not perfect, but don't condemn us as mistakes who can never do better.
fuuuuucking stoooooop for god sake's.
i'm sorry, humans are great. let's just keep this whole thing we've been doing going and pat ourselves on the back, because everything's just gonna be great. :D
Learn to love yourself and others; where there's pain there's also a possibility for healing. The world can be changed, our future will be difficult but the only reason it might be a horrible nightmare is because of Capitalism and the ruling by the oppressors. Your expression of self-defeat says more about you than about the future. Things can change, humans and society can change, old systems can be overthrown. This is a place for comrades, if you don't think the world can change for the better, then what the fuck are you even doing here?
the idea that "Human beings are the most amazing thing ever, and we do what we do because we believe that our potential must be pursued to its fullest extent" does not encourage a change in the system. if you encourage this mind set what the ufck are YOU doing here?
Actually from Marx who analyzes labor and declares it integral to the self-worth and innate drive by human beings, doing and working is as human as anything else. The question is what system do we operate under? If we do things for others and only a few people benefit then it is the system that's flawed.
I asked you a question. You are being a sourpuss and downright unlikeable person. The world sucks now, but it can change. If you think nothing will change, then you are a sectarian embracing the doom to put other people down. And it fucking sucks.
you think sectarian means anything that contradicts your fucking bubble. it doesn't.
You are extremely predictable and incredibly fucking boring. I hope you realize your shit-attitude does not make you unique, and you are amongst comrades who, somehow, want to make the world a better place. You can drop the hard-ass act.
there is nothing inevitable, fortune, or fate.
me pointing out that humans ain't the most amazing thing in the world doesn't give you the right to lump me into some category worth of disdain and allow you the right to berate me.
you calling me 'predictable', 'fucking boring' and saying i have a 'shit -attitude' is fucking toxic, based on me taking issue with the statement "Human beings are the most amazing thing ever, and we do what we do because we believe that our potential must be pursued to its fullest extent"
sorry, that's completely bullshit. look up the definition of sectarian before you go throwing it around.