You guys really don't get that your voting system only leads to two parties. As soon as one of those parties splits up, the other one will literally always win, that's just a mathematical reality.
It is true that both of these two parties are terrible. However, D is slightly less terrible as R. If you stop voting for D and go for X which is theoretically objectively better, R will always win. So a vote for X is effectively a vote for R.
Yes, if suddenly all D voters would move to X, then X would win. But this is simply not realistic. The only realistic way for change is for the slightly better party of the two to always win, which would make R die out. Then a farther left party will emerge, that might even want to change to ranked choice voting. If not, the whole spiel has to be repeated until D dies out because of never winning.
This is incredibly slow, but slow is how our society changes. Even the French revolution didn't just suddenly happen, hundreds of years of starting to understand how terrible monarchy was and building the knowledge of alternate systems among the general populace was required. The real change is people gaining more knowledge, gaining a better understanding of reality, themselves.
You guys really don't get that your voting system only leads to two parties.
Goddammit I wish you brick headed libs would have some fucking humility. "URGH DONT YOU GUYS REALISE [the most common thing we all get spit into our faces all the time] HURH BET YA DIDNT THINK OF THAT HUH?"
Consider the following: you dont know what the fuck you're talking about. Consider the fact that we, just like you, have also heard these talking points as they get served to our head and ass every election season. Unlike you we possess critical thinking skills above that of a parrot, a memory that is better than that of a goldfish, and are slightly more curious than an adolescent ape. This leads to us doing slightly more than reading the headline of the most up voted thing on Reddit for the day, and grants us just a tiny bit deeper understanding of the system and the many flaws with it. Also fuck your mother for giving birth to an idiot like you.
As soon as one of those parties splits up, the other one will literally always win, that's just a mathematical reality.
I love presenting my own half-assed analysis based on an uncountable number of assumptions as "mathematical reality"
You've been doing this rhetoric for over half a century and all it has brought you is genocide, climate change denial (doing fuck all is the same as denying it), deportations en masse and a fascist police state.
and it was already a clichéd argument back then.
That's the real issue this time," he said. "Beating Nixon. It's hard to even guess how much damage those bastards will do if they get in for another four years."
The argument was familiar, I had even made it myself, here and there, but I was beginning to sense something very depressing about it. How many more of these goddamn elections are we going to have to write off as lame, but "regrettably necessary" holding actions? And how many more of these stinking double-downer sideshows will we have to go through before we can get ourselves straight enough to put together some kind of national election that will give me and the at least 20 million people I tend to agree with a chance to vote for something, instead of always being faced with that old familiar choice between the lesser of two evils?
Now with another one of these big bogus showdowns looming down on us, I can already pick up the stench of another bummer. I understand, along with a lot of other people, that the big thing this year is Beating Nixon. But that was also the big thing, as I recall, twelve years ago in 1960 – and as far as I can tell, we've gone from bad to worse to rotten since then, and the outlook is for more of the same.
—Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing: On the Campaign Trail '72
You really don't get it, but constantly voting for the "lesser evil" doesn't do anything other than make it more evil.
This is incredibly slow, but slow is how our society changes. Even the French revolution didn't just suddenly happen.
So first of all you show you do understand that people plan further than just the current election, yet you fail to comprehend the concept as it applies to the US. "UOHHHH PSL WOULDNT WIN SO WHY VOTE FOR THEM? THESE THINGS TAKE TIME DONCHA KNOW GUYS" yeah why work towards incrementally making another party popular when you can make it clear to those in charge that they can away with genocide instead.
Secondly: Tell me you know nothing about the french revolution without telling me. It did come very suddenly, that's one of the main things about it dumbfuck. It wasn't the result of centuries of agitation, it was the very present result of the conditions at that moment in France, not decades or centuries of work. The politics themselves developed along with the revolution, people didn't even conceive of killing the king until... Well until after it happened.
You think people in medieval times thought the king was good? The nobles would host tournaments on random plots of land, typically containing one or more villages that they'd just fuck up. Just ride thru and pillage and completely destroy. People would get their winter depots ransacked by the nobles as they passed thru with a small army. They were practically slaves for most of the time and essentially slaves the rest of the time. You think these people didn't fucking hate the monarchy? You think it took centuries of enlightened dickheads like you to go around and dare ask wild questions like "hey have you considered not giving three quarters of your grain to your liege lord? Have you considered the fact that your liege lord shouldn't be allowed to just put you in the pillock because he's bored?"
You should be ashamed for thinking the world functions as you think it does.
The real change is people gaining more knowledge, gaining a better understanding of reality, themselves.
Incredible take to have come from someone as dumb as you. Pull your head out of the toilet and read a book please. I dunno, start with settlers. I'd tell you to read some Lenin but we both know that would just lead to the immediate regurgitation of more trite drivel from you as we once again have to pretend like you have any novel insights.
In conclusion: Just say you don't give a shit about genocide. Just say you're supportive of genocide as long as you feel safe. Just admit you don't give a fuck about brown people, instead of having us got thru this whole charade. At least the republicans have the decency not to pretend to care. Finally .fuck whoever donated the sperm that assisted in the creation of you.
Edit: Either the anti-genocide bloc has enough sway to make one of the candidates change position or we don't matter enough and thus it doesn't matter wether we vote or not. The circular "you have to vote for her or she loses! No you aren't enough to make demands!" Is as asinine as it is obvious - Well obvious to anyone who is capable of even the most miniscule piece of investigation about the ideology they're mired in every day.
Double edit: Just realised you never answered the question. How many?
Goddammit I wish you brick headed libs would have some fucking humility. "URGH DONT YOU GUYS REALISE [the most common thing we all get spit into our faces all the time] HURH BET YA DIDNT THINK OF THAT HUH?"
Consider the following: you dont know what the fuck you're talking about. Consider the fact that we, just like you, have also heard these talking points as they get served to our head and ass every election season. Unlike you we possess critical thinking skills above that of a parrot, a memory that is better than that of a goldfish, and are slightly more curious than an adolescent ape. This leads to us doing slightly more than reading the headline of the most up voted thing on Reddit for the day, and grants us just a tiny bit deeper understanding of the system and the many flaws with it. Also fuck your mother for giving birth to an idiot like you.
Mods can I nominate myself for a tagline please? 🥺🥺
That is a massive compliment, especially coming from you <3 Thank you so much!
I do wish we had more bots. I want a bot that responds with the HST quote whenever people mention "lesser evilism". One that reacts when people post a wikipedia quote (maybe only certain articles, like "communism")
I wanted others, but I don't recall them right now. Maybe something that responds to lemmitors calling others for russian bots.
Edit: Oh yeah an ad hominem bot. I want a bot that insults anyone who claims an ad hominem and the explains what the fallacy actually is.
Wish I knew how to code.
Would be rad!
Maybe I should get into coding and I could make those bots a hobby project.
A bot response for someone complaining about bots would be extremely funny and meta, I will bring all this up with the admin team.
Didn't even think of that part! I think there should maybe be some condition that it does not respond to hexbear users, since we like to joke about it too and that might get tiring. Or maybe it's funny, who knows?
I'll see if I can get @quotebot@hexbear.net running again. If you have a working codebase and want the username, DM me and I'll give you the password over matrix.
Yeah I tried to make a reference to curious george, then realized he is very curious, but at that point I was too happy with it. Kill your darlings (this rule is for thee but not for mee)
No it isn't! No it fucking isn't! There is no scenario where not voting for Trump is voting for Trump. This is the stupidest fucking thing the liberals have latched on to and keep repeating and it's truly an embarrassment that so many people repeat it. The only way to vote for Trump is to vote for Trump. Not voting isn't a vote of any kind. Voting for third parties is voting for third parties. You can pretend to do a logic puzzle where not voting for Trump means you're voting for Trump, but you're still a fucking clown for doing it and nobody with any sense is going to take your imaginary logic puzzle with anything but pity for you.
The only way this liberal logic works is if you assume leftists owe a vote to Democrats by default, so not voting for the Democrats means they've lost your vote that they rightfully owned in the first place. It's so goofy. No one is losing anything if I never intended to vote for genocide. If liberals can't come up with a good reason for me to vote for their particular Hitler, that's on them, not me.
I'm going to exercise restraint right now and curb my gut reaction to beat you to death with a tire iron.
Please read the fucking room.
We do not accept this electoral process as legitimate democracy and refuse to participate in a system that perpetuates and is built on genocide both at home and abroad.
We cannot vote our way out of this so sit the fuck down, shut the fuck up, maybe lurk a bit and listen to people here.
If you motherfuckers keep trying to convince us to vote for Klanmala we will eventually ban you because it's very tiresome and displays your fundamental lack of understanding of how politics, capitalism, and imperialism work. If you want to participate, you need to start acting like a student and not a reactionary teacher.
There is already a uniparty - the corporate party. Neolibs and Neocons united decades ago to pull the long con in America, and it worked beautifully. Gradual incrementalism isn’t going to get us out of this mess brother - it’s what got us here in the first place.
even if everything you said were true, the reality is we are out of time for "slow, incremental" change. the climate crisis is here and has been for a while. your way won't work.
Even the French revolution didn't just suddenly happen, hundreds of years of starting to understand how terrible monarchy was and building the knowledge of alternate systems among the general populace was required. The real change is people gaining more knowledge, gaining a better understanding of reality, themselves.
Maybe take some time away from math to learn about history and revolution. YOU don't really get it. The French revolution definitely wasn't people slowly learning that Monarchy is bad over hundreds of years. The Monarchy didn't have power because people didn't know better. Monarchies existed on purpose and they were maintained against the will of the lower class. They knew it was bad. The labor knew it was bad immediately. The society at whole didn't care that it was bad because it either didn't affect them or they benefited from it.
damn that's a great song. I've heard them recommended a lot but never got around to actually listening to them. Thanks for adding to my library of based folk punk.
Not to take the focus away from your pure and justified hate but man I love early TMG (not knocking the more recent albums, just not familiar with them). Got obsessed years ago watching Moral Orel when I should have been resting up for highschool.
That's the exact song that got me into TMG then it turns out John Darnielle is the favorite vocalist of one of my partners, so it all worked out rather nicely
So you are fine giving active support for genocide for 'slightly less terrible'. To me it's like saying 'I am dying of thirst in the desert and I prefer the night because it is cooler and I will die slower.' The end is the same.
lmao I mean this in the nicest way, how old are you? Cause this is some brain-dead eight grade civics class shit I would've written at 14
The only realistic way for change is for the slightly better party of the two to always win, which would make R die out
Let's take this part as a lesson in poor critical reasoning, your argument is a complete political non-sequitur; if the dems won every election that wouldn't lead to republicans or American conservatives dying out, they'd either institute a coup thru the supreme court to regain electoral advantages or reconstitute inside the Democratic Party which means the two political system becomes a one party factional system
The problem with your conception of politics is that frankly you clearly take the propaganda of American civil religion at face value, while simultaneously selectively ignoring the real world political sympathies of the DNC leadership and elites which are bipartisan and republican friendly
Also this should already be blatantly obvious to you, but it doesn't take hundreds of years for people to oppose genocide, they oppose it now and the fascism that creates that genocide isn't going to wait for your turtle ass conception of society before it spreads it's genocidal intent to other parts of the globe or to YOU closer at home, so get a fuckin grip
Also this should already be blatantly obvious to you, but it doesn't take hundreds of years for people to oppose genocide, they oppose it now and the fascism that creates that genocide isn't going to wait for your turtle ass conception of society before it spreads it's genocidal intent to other parts of the globe or to YOU closer at home, so get a fuckin grip
Uhm actually it took the nazis several centuries to get into power and then it took several centuries to do anything about them (technically correct on the latter I guess, since they're still in government, but you get what I mean.) What's this about weeks and decades?
You guys really don't get that your voting system only leads to two parties. As soon as one of those parties splits up, the other one will literally always win, that's just a mathematical reality
That is why electoralism won't save us, yes.
This is incredibly slow, but slow is how our society changes
Comrade Lenin himself said in 1915 that he didn't expect the revolution to happen in his lifetime. Revolutionary change isn't gradual, it happens in months.
Even the French revolution didn't just suddenly happen, hundreds of years of starting to understand how terrible monarchy was and building the knowledge of alternate systems among the general populace was required.
actually it was because the peasants didn't have any food and got Fed Up With Things
Noooo it just took time to understand monarchy was bad noooo they just had to do more research into their ideology tree they didn't know they were getting fucked over before that
The real joke on libs is that electoralism is designed to make sure you're ancient or otherwise used all your finite lifetime's worth of energy before you realize you can't change anything by voting and then they die before anyone believes them lol
You guys really don't get that your voting system only leads to two parties. As soon as one of those parties splits up, the other one will literally always win, that's just a mathematical reality.
It is true that both of these two parties are terrible. However, D is slightly less terrible as R. If you stop voting for D and go for X which is theoretically objectively better, R will always win. So a vote for X is effectively a vote for R.
Yes, if suddenly all D voters would move to X, then X would win. But this is simply not realistic. The only realistic way for change is for the slightly better party of the two to always win, which would make R die out. Then a farther left party will emerge, that might even want to change to ranked choice voting. If not, the whole spiel has to be repeated until D dies out because of never winning.
This is incredibly slow, but slow is how our society changes. Even the French revolution didn't just suddenly happen, hundreds of years of starting to understand how terrible monarchy was and building the knowledge of alternate systems among the general populace was required. The real change is people gaining more knowledge, gaining a better understanding of reality, themselves.
Goddammit I wish you brick headed libs would have some fucking humility. "URGH DONT YOU GUYS REALISE [the most common thing we all get spit into our faces all the time] HURH BET YA DIDNT THINK OF THAT HUH?"
Consider the following: you dont know what the fuck you're talking about. Consider the fact that we, just like you, have also heard these talking points as they get served to our head and ass every election season. Unlike you we possess critical thinking skills above that of a parrot, a memory that is better than that of a goldfish, and are slightly more curious than an adolescent ape. This leads to us doing slightly more than reading the headline of the most up voted thing on Reddit for the day, and grants us just a tiny bit deeper understanding of the system and the many flaws with it. Also fuck your mother for giving birth to an idiot like you.
I love presenting my own half-assed analysis based on an uncountable number of assumptions as "mathematical reality"
You've been doing this rhetoric for over half a century and all it has brought you is genocide, climate change denial (doing fuck all is the same as denying it), deportations en masse and a fascist police state.
and it was already a clichéd argument back then.
—Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing: On the Campaign Trail '72
You really don't get it, but constantly voting for the "lesser evil" doesn't do anything other than make it more evil.
So first of all you show you do understand that people plan further than just the current election, yet you fail to comprehend the concept as it applies to the US. "UOHHHH PSL WOULDNT WIN SO WHY VOTE FOR THEM? THESE THINGS TAKE TIME DONCHA KNOW GUYS" yeah why work towards incrementally making another party popular when you can make it clear to those in charge that they can away with genocide instead.
Secondly: Tell me you know nothing about the french revolution without telling me. It did come very suddenly, that's one of the main things about it dumbfuck. It wasn't the result of centuries of agitation, it was the very present result of the conditions at that moment in France, not decades or centuries of work. The politics themselves developed along with the revolution, people didn't even conceive of killing the king until... Well until after it happened.
You think people in medieval times thought the king was good? The nobles would host tournaments on random plots of land, typically containing one or more villages that they'd just fuck up. Just ride thru and pillage and completely destroy. People would get their winter depots ransacked by the nobles as they passed thru with a small army. They were practically slaves for most of the time and essentially slaves the rest of the time. You think these people didn't fucking hate the monarchy? You think it took centuries of enlightened dickheads like you to go around and dare ask wild questions like "hey have you considered not giving three quarters of your grain to your liege lord? Have you considered the fact that your liege lord shouldn't be allowed to just put you in the pillock because he's bored?"
You should be ashamed for thinking the world functions as you think it does.
Incredible take to have come from someone as dumb as you. Pull your head out of the toilet and read a book please. I dunno, start with settlers. I'd tell you to read some Lenin but we both know that would just lead to the immediate regurgitation of more trite drivel from you as we once again have to pretend like you have any novel insights.
In conclusion: Just say you don't give a shit about genocide. Just say you're supportive of genocide as long as you feel safe. Just admit you don't give a fuck about brown people, instead of having us got thru this whole charade. At least the republicans have the decency not to pretend to care. Finally .fuck whoever donated the sperm that assisted in the creation of you.
Edit: Either the anti-genocide bloc has enough sway to make one of the candidates change position or we don't matter enough and thus it doesn't matter wether we vote or not. The circular "you have to vote for her or she loses! No you aren't enough to make demands!" Is as asinine as it is obvious - Well obvious to anyone who is capable of even the most miniscule piece of investigation about the ideology they're mired in every day.
Double edit: Just realised you never answered the question. How many?
Mods can I nominate myself for a tagline please? 🥺🥺
Fuck I would go as far as saying this comment should be an automod response if we could find a proper set of keywords.
That is a massive compliment, especially coming from you <3 Thank you so much!
I do wish we had more bots. I want a bot that responds with the HST quote whenever people mention "lesser evilism". One that reacts when people post a wikipedia quote (maybe only certain articles, like "communism")
I wanted others, but I don't recall them right now. Maybe something that responds to lemmitors calling others for russian bots.
Edit: Oh yeah an ad hominem bot. I want a bot that insults anyone who claims an ad hominem and the explains what the fallacy actually is.
Wish I knew how to code.
I think that we could probably do
A bot response for someone complaining about bots would be extremely funny and meta, I will bring all this up with the admin team.
Would be rad!
Maybe I should get into coding and I could make those bots a hobby project.
Didn't even think of that part! I think there should maybe be some condition that it does not respond to hexbear users, since we like to joke about it too and that might get tiring. Or maybe it's funny, who knows?
I think it would be funny if it responded to us too
I mean I'm just the ideas guy (the most important type of guy) it's really all up to you
And I agree, I still get a kick out of getting hit with friendly fire from the whataboutism bot
Whataboutism? What about deez nuts?
owned
I'll see if I can get @quotebot@hexbear.net running again. If you have a working codebase and want the username, DM me and I'll give you the password over matrix.
Let's be fair here, adolescent apes are extremely curious
Yeah I tried to make a reference to curious george, then realized he is very curious, but at that point I was too happy with it. Kill your darlings (this rule is for thee but not for mee)
So we should be able to kill you but not you us?
I wish I was named George so I could say I'm Bi-Curious George
deleted by creator
Click Chavez for a thread about the quote
No it isn't! No it fucking isn't! There is no scenario where not voting for Trump is voting for Trump. This is the stupidest fucking thing the liberals have latched on to and keep repeating and it's truly an embarrassment that so many people repeat it. The only way to vote for Trump is to vote for Trump. Not voting isn't a vote of any kind. Voting for third parties is voting for third parties. You can pretend to do a logic puzzle where not voting for Trump means you're voting for Trump, but you're still a fucking clown for doing it and nobody with any sense is going to take your imaginary logic puzzle with anything but pity for you.
The only way this liberal logic works is if you assume leftists owe a vote to Democrats by default, so not voting for the Democrats means they've lost your vote that they rightfully owned in the first place. It's so goofy. No one is losing anything if I never intended to vote for genocide. If liberals can't come up with a good reason for me to vote for their particular Hitler, that's on them, not me.
Can you quantify that in dead Palestinian babies?
political change is fast as fuck actually
Nice of you to stop by and offer us some unprompted advice that we've totally never heard before.
I'm going to exercise restraint right now and curb my gut reaction to beat you to death with a tire iron.
Please read the fucking room.
We do not accept this electoral process as legitimate democracy and refuse to participate in a system that perpetuates and is built on genocide both at home and abroad.
We cannot vote our way out of this so sit the fuck down, shut the fuck up, maybe lurk a bit and listen to people here.
If you motherfuckers keep trying to convince us to vote for Klanmala we will eventually ban you because it's very tiresome and displays your fundamental lack of understanding of how politics, capitalism, and imperialism work. If you want to participate, you need to start acting like a student and not a reactionary teacher.
deleted by creator
There is already a uniparty - the corporate party. Neolibs and Neocons united decades ago to pull the long con in America, and it worked beautifully. Gradual incrementalism isn’t going to get us out of this mess brother - it’s what got us here in the first place.
My small pedantic addition to your good comment: neolibs are neocons. They share the same ideology. They both think Thatcher was good
baby-brained historical idealism. material conditions are the primary driver of history
even if everything you said were true, the reality is we are out of time for "slow, incremental" change. the climate crisis is here and has been for a while. your way won't work.
We get that genocide is happening, and we're don't support it. You're obviously fine with it
We do though. We're just saying that the system can go fuck itself. And you too.
Maybe take some time away from math to learn about history and revolution. YOU don't really get it. The French revolution definitely wasn't people slowly learning that Monarchy is bad over hundreds of years. The Monarchy didn't have power because people didn't know better. Monarchies existed on purpose and they were maintained against the will of the lower class. They knew it was bad. The labor knew it was bad immediately. The society at whole didn't care that it was bad because it either didn't affect them or they benefited from it.
Shut the fuck up you disgusting genocidal piece of shit
Listen to this song if you want to try to begin understanding how much I fucking hate you, really pay attention to the last few lines of lyrics
damn that's a great song. I've heard them recommended a lot but never got around to actually listening to them. Thanks for adding to my library of based folk punk.
Not to take the focus away from your pure and justified hate but man I love early TMG (not knocking the more recent albums, just not familiar with them). Got obsessed years ago watching Moral Orel when I should have been resting up for highschool.
That's the exact song that got me into TMG then it turns out John Darnielle is the favorite vocalist of one of my partners, so it all worked out rather nicely
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
So you are fine giving active support for genocide for 'slightly less terrible'. To me it's like saying 'I am dying of thirst in the desert and I prefer the night because it is cooler and I will die slower.' The end is the same.
"On one hand genocide. On the other hand Harris might actually get the border wall finished."
lmao I mean this in the nicest way, how old are you? Cause this is some brain-dead eight grade civics class shit I would've written at 14
Let's take this part as a lesson in poor critical reasoning, your argument is a complete political non-sequitur; if the dems won every election that wouldn't lead to republicans or American conservatives dying out, they'd either institute a coup thru the supreme court to regain electoral advantages or reconstitute inside the Democratic Party which means the two political system becomes a one party factional system
The problem with your conception of politics is that frankly you clearly take the propaganda of American civil religion at face value, while simultaneously selectively ignoring the real world political sympathies of the DNC leadership and elites which are bipartisan and republican friendly
Also this should already be blatantly obvious to you, but it doesn't take hundreds of years for people to oppose genocide, they oppose it now and the fascism that creates that genocide isn't going to wait for your turtle ass conception of society before it spreads it's genocidal intent to other parts of the globe or to YOU closer at home, so get a fuckin grip
Uhm actually it took the nazis several centuries to get into power and then it took several centuries to do anything about them (technically correct on the latter I guess, since they're still in government, but you get what I mean.) What's this about weeks and decades?
That is why electoralism won't save us, yes.
Comrade Lenin himself said in 1915 that he didn't expect the revolution to happen in his lifetime. Revolutionary change isn't gradual, it happens in months.
Thanks for the babies-first-civics lesson.
Please leave your democratic seal of approval for more dead children in your local ballot box, rather than regurgitating it especially for us.
actually it was because the peasants didn't have any food and got Fed Up With Things
Why use obvious materialist explanations when you can have unexamined idealism instead?
Noooo it just took time to understand monarchy was bad noooo they just had to do more research into their ideology tree they didn't know they were getting fucked over before that
How could they have been fed up if they had no food?
revolution is when no food but somehow also fed up with the status quo checkmake tamkeys
I've been told this was gonna happen since I was 14 this was gonna happen any year now, it's been almost 20 years.
I think there's only one way the Rs are dying out in this settler colony shithole
The real joke on libs is that electoralism is designed to make sure you're ancient or otherwise used all your finite lifetime's worth of energy before you realize you can't change anything by voting and then they die before anyone believes them lol
Fuck off literally every person here knows more than you do you absolute fucking clown.
Lmao reap what you sow dumbass