Original post here: https://hexbear.net/post/3856299?scrollToComments=false
I think we have a general path forward based on community feedback. "We see you, we hear you!"
I went ahead and unpinned the old post. I'm pinning this one for now and will edit this post when I wake up from eepy time. I had a very mid week and have no particular alarm set so be on look out. Love y'all and I'm amped for my first announcement post since coming back. :)
I think there should probably be some accountability for whoever was/were behind "the white cishet man vibes" part of the post, editing it out of the original post doesn't change that is was there, saying that shit was kinda fucked, as many people in the original post noted
Yeah carcosa stepping down makes things worse not better. The issue was in no way carcosa, in fact they made it much less bad than it could have been. The idea that carcosa steps down and those cowardly mods still get to run around behaving like gross bigots pisses me off.
I still don't fully understand what is happening. I know I don't want @CARCOSA@hexbear.net to go though
Apparently this is why they are stepping down? I really disagree with that, people are conflating "trying to avoid more drama" with "working with nazis" in the other thread. I feel like I missed something there.
On top of that this is Carcosas reasoning for stepping down which is what motivated me to hammer home that they handled this situation as best as it possibly could be handled and they really should not step down for making mistakes, when the only mistake they've made is listen to those shitty mods.
People, me included, are mad because of the mod statement that was released about the closing down of the comms + The reasoning for closing down the comms. In a lot of ways it seems like this is the culmination of something that has been a long time coming and been unresolved for far too long - Some users think posting is praxis and that hexbear should be the headquarters of the revolutionary vanguard.
These users are dipshits that don't understand that most leftist orgs are also just fun places to hang out and shoot the shit. That's why people choose to volunteer for that kind of stuff - Because it is, in part, nice.
These dipshits furthermore think their treats are somehow less treatlike than the treats they dislike despite both treats being hexbear.
Finally they have a narc mindset.
Also they smell bad and they coat their shitty behaviour with leftist rhetoric so they can get away with it. Lots of talk about "chauvinism", "bigotry" and "toxicity" despite the previous thread being full of those very same people being incredibly hostile, dismissive, derisive, misgendering, ableist and a lot more. This isn't hypocrisy, because they don't actually care about bigotry, they just use it as an excuse to avoid self-reflection.
I don't understand why this place can't be both a place to help people organise and do productive stuff and be a fun place to shitpost.
I dunno, I am pretty dumb I guess.
No you're on the money because it does not make sense. It's a lot easier to organize in places with people than it is in a barren desert.
On top of that I do not understand why people think we need to be productive on a website we visit for fun. This is not a place I go to create value. I am not here to work.
Trying to squeeze value out of casual discussion is lethal to casual discussion. It reminds me somewhat of Reddit’s attempt to monetize the website especially in the lead-up to their IPO.
I suppose Hexbear can be construed to serve a leftist purpose. That purpose is community and sanctuary. I don’t think it can or should be more than that, at least not in this space.
No actually posting has to be productive. I don't know how it can be productive, but it better be. I have a healthy mindset about being online.
get back to the posting mines, soldier
Sorry I had to make vegan ice cream and then eat too much of it
Now Carcosa is saying that contrary to what the screenshot says, they lied to the other Lemmy admins.
If Carcosa is telling the truth, then it makes them look dumb and duplicitous for thinking other admins would fall for such an obvious ruse.
If Carcosa is lying, then it makes them look duplicitous and dumb because they are trying to weasel their way out of what the screenshot plainly says.
Given this, Carcosa is right to step down. How can anyone trust them anymore? I certainly don't trust them anymore.
What? Yeah Carcosa said they lied, that tracks completely with what they're saying, I've already talked to this here
It doesn't make carcosa look duplicitous. It makes carcosa look like somebody who is trying to convince somebody to help them, it's pretty standard fare when you talk to someone who is hostile to you. I do it at work from time to time.
@tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com put it pretty well here too
I no longer really trust Carcosa anymore because I find it hard to believe that anyone would think that other people, especially people hostile and distrustful of you like liberal and fascist admins of a shitty Reddit clone, would fall for such a transparent ruse. Hostile admins would automatically assume Carcosa is full of shit anyways on account of them being liberals and fascists hostile to Hexbear as a socialist website. And even if I can be made to trust Carcosa again, I certainly can no longer trust Carcosa's judgment. Like, based on what Carcosa said, they basically never bother running through this ruse with the other admins of this website. So Carcosa lied to other lemmy admins without telling the other Hexbear admins?
Frankly, I find that extraordinarily hard to believe. A much more sensible series of events is that the ruse was thought of and collectively decided upon by all the admins and Carcosa was made the emissary due to their reputation as "the reasonable Hexbearian" among the rest of the Fediverse. Carcosa saying it was all their idea and stepping down is Carcosa falling on their sword on behalf of the other admins so us unwashed sicko masses don't grab our pitchforks and blame the rest of the admins.
Whatever the case, what's done is done.
That's fair. It's not nice to see someone you (used to) trust lying. I'm not trying to convince you and I don't think you're trying to convince me either, we're just sharing our thoughts.[1] I've personally been in similar situations wrt being the middleperson between a lot of groups and having to try to manage everything. It lead to me doing a lot of the same stuff.
I don't know if carcosa expected it to work, but I trust that carcosa hoped it would and that they ended up calculating that the positive outcome was worth risking the most negative outcome. I'm not saying it's a good thing to do, but I'm saying it's understandable and completely rational. Carcosa acknowledged their mistake and offered to step down, which I really do not think they should do. It was a mistake, but we all make mistakes.
No idea why I'm saying this, but I felt the need to. You're nice and I enjoy this interaction, thank you ↩︎
Edit: I read wrong :(
It is? A "narc" is slang for a "narcotics cop". How is that related to neurodivergency?
Sorry, I thought you were saying it like "narcissistic mindset"
I'll edit my comment
No worries, I can understand the confusion if you don't know the slang. An to be honest it was hostile.
I appreciate you genuinely asking how it could be ableist and recognizing that it could be hostile even when I was misinterpreting you, comrade
You're welcome! I'm ND myself and I get how it can be to feel targeted like that, better safe than sorry. I appreciate you pointing it out and being so kind about it, despite the tone of the post. I've edited it now anyway, because it was frankly way over the line <3
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You know how there's a saying about thieves suspecting everybody of stealing?
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ah shit you got me, yeah I'm actually being super nefarious or something. I don't know what you wrote here lol but I guess it was some paranoid thing about me lying about being ND or some ableist bullshit lol
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Fuck what a gutbuster, you got me again lol, I'm sincerely laughing out loud. This is also a good example of what I meant by "can't handle disagreement so has to invent something to get mad at" by the way
Seek a mental health professionals help please
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wow that one seemed much more vitriolic, if you're getting worked up to the point of wishing death on others for the crime of not agreeing with you, then you should probably see a rage councelor
no one is thinking that, no one is forcing you to make effortposts, if you want to just call someone dumb you have c/gossip for that, what we are merely doing is forbidding low-effort dunking on private people, which we think is toxic and boring
Who exactly is "we", and why should what you think matter to the rest of us?
Especially when you are not being forced to be the mod of a comm and can simply not engage with or even see the content VIA THE INTENTIONAL DESIGN OF THE SITE.
Feels like we just had a struggle session over somebody getting annoyed that when they jumped in the pool, they got wet.
Fuck off you dork. I'm pretty obviously being hyperbolic to underline a point in that sentence.
You're still being a dismissive shitheel who fails to engage with the users who have put forth well-reasoned arguments for why dunking is not toxic. You continuing to repeat "it's toxic" like some fucked up parrot does not make it so.
If it's boring, maybe don't be a mod of the comm you massive dipshit. Just block it, it's actually really easy. There's tons of comms I don't interact with, because I don't find them interesting. You are a fantastic example of the attitude I'm talking about.
Now I'm gonna become the parrot and repeat myself, but it's pretty fucking telling that all the shitheels who cry about "toxicity in the dunk tank" have been massive assholes throughout this entire thing. If this was about toxicity, one would think you of all people would be less of a turd when you're interacting with other people, even people who dares to gasp disagree with you. Do some fucking self-crit you bug
edit: "we think" is obviously not everybody. Stop hiding behind a general vague group.
I did not engage with those arguments because i did not find them convincing, all they boil down to is that its cathartic and "fun", but i fail to see why the targets must be other common people for it to be cathartic and "fun"
If I go to work and my coworker is being a bigoted asshole conspiracy weirdo I am gonna vent about it when I get home to my partner.
I don’t care how much of a “common man” he is.
NOOO VENTING TO YOUR PARTNER ISN'T PRODUCTIVE YOU HAVE TO PRODUCE VALUE ALL THE TIME I AM A SOCIALIST AND YOU ARE WHITE AND CIS AND HET AND CHAUVINIST AND TOXIC
I think it’s clear that plenty of people here, evidently at least a plurality, find these posts to be cathartic and "fun", so why should you and a handful of people disagreeing have any impact on why people shouldn’t get to have catharsis and fun?
Essentially, why are you right other than you think you are?
The "targets" don't even know we're talking about them. In the off chance that someone sees a post on the comm and decides to go dunk on some fascist, I'd say it's deserved, we should not take any actions to protect fascists from having their feelings hurt.
The purpose of those changes is not to protect the nameless chuds, but to make the content better and less toxic
okay but how do we make you better and less toxic
genuinely
i dont believe im toxic
naw listen, when someone whose entire online life is a tsunami of toxicity tells you that you're sucking shit i really do think it's wisest to at least consider the possibility that you may not have the clearest view of your own actions
let me rephrase. i don't want to say you are toxic. but you are definitely being toxic. if you don't want to claim that (i think you should) then you are at very least being...i guess deeply disrespectful? it's unpleasant, is what i am trying to get at. there should not be this level of hostility between the people running the show and the rest of us. i don't think it's natural. i also don't think it's something we the userbase are responsible for kicking off (at least in this instance).
you will have to be more specific, in what way was i disrespectful?
alright, i'll play along.
i think the way you've comported yourself in general during this event positively reeks of disdain: for the userbase, their interests and desires, and for the effort they have expended trying to communicate such with you.*
you should be able to understand that replying to long, considered posts with terse statements of dismissal and apparent disinterest is, if nothing else, deeply rude behavior. it's the equivalent of responding to someone's impassioned monologue with "okay". at best they will feel stupid for trying to talk to you at all. it's flatly not the sort of behavior you extend towards someone you respect on any level.
*i know this isn't equivalent to the effort of upkeeping and running the site. i am keeping that in mind during this critique.
Hmm, you may be right
lmao i genuinely cannot tell if this is an example of the behavior i discussed or if it's just an amusing coincidence but i will take it in good faith and offer some advice in kind: if you feel that your time here has embittered you towards the userbase, the site culture, or your duties as a moderator, i really do think you should give consideration to either taking a break from moderating or the site as a whole. i say this with no hostility. you folks put in a lot of labor to keep the site usable and we all appreciate that. and the key word there really is labor. i'm sure monitoring the community that is simultaneously the most active and the most likely to contain deeply emotionally damaging/draining rhetoric is not easy, to say nothing of the drama it stirs up with the other, lesser instances.
you should not be spending your limited free time in this life doing something that you hate.
It may be enlightening to know im autistic
I would also like to see more effort posts instead of reddit tier screenshots and gotchas. I'd like to know - have it spelled out for me, rather - how to discuss and process why liberal and reactionary talking points and axioms are false and ineffective. but I think understanding the criticisms against liberals and reactionaries doesn't come from internet posts or youtube essays, but from reading and learning.
And then coming to the site to share that common understanding of reality via the leftist lens, and then exercise levity over that reality as we face our spectrum of competency and power(lessness) in that reality.
I've learned that the catharsis is the point. It's a necessary intellectual cultivation of enduring in reality and acting upon reality.
It'd be fair to say that you, I, and perhaps all of us would like to see that catharsis go somewhere. Yet we just won't see it go from Hexbear -> ??? - > socialist activism, community organizing, volunteering, etc.
The unknown factor are the material conditions and motivations of people to put their time and energy in the material world; the levity gleaned here is the point of the site, and as a community this is what its members make of it. It isn't inherently a bad thing.
Let people have their fun. It isn't meaningless, fruitless, or useless just because it does not interest you or I.
Dolores Umbridge was more hated among the Harry Potter fanbase than Voldemort.
What makes the distinction between mockery of public officials and petty trolls on the internet (twitter, reddit, lemmy) is that often our fellow proleterians are also our tormentors. In the news, Israeli football vandals picked fights, defaced properties, and chanted genocidal and racist rants. This behavior is echoed on the bottom of Israeli society and validated by the top; this behavior (not just Israeli racism but bigotry/oppression in general) is also echoed in Western states by core constituencies of its dominant population, and validated through willful ignorance and patronizing liberalism.
I think our problem here is that we've seen a lot of this content. So much so that it also gets grating.
But not everything is for everyone.
Ah is this the fabled improved rhetoric? Or is this your idea of not being dismissive and toxic?
"I didn't engage with the arguments because I didn't agree with them"
Fuck off, seriously. Do some self crit.
Why are you modding the dunk tank? Why take the job if you hate it?
edit: If you can't even be arsed to put in basic effort when having an argument, how can you expect this site to be one that fosters effortposts?
Time for tone policing. Take your strongly worded words in your replies to replaceable down by like 30 to 50 hogs.
Some of the people that have Ms or As next to their names are gonna need having strong words of their own so I'd suggest not getting too tilted.
Thanks for giving me a warning, I appreciate it. I got too heated and treated an annoying dork like a genocide-apologising lib. It was too much.
You've read the posts though right? like objectively there are some pretty bad fucking people getting represented in that content
Those may be people that say terrible things but that doesnt matter, if we dont know their identity, most likely they are just another prole and their words are just as inconsequential as mine or yours
The words of a random chud might not be consequential in itself, but I think it's important to take note of what kind of rhetoric is going around chud circles and counter it and the dunking helps that. Maybe people are getting riled up or mad because of it but it seems like many of us don't see it that way. The dunk tank posts do not rile me or make me mad in general, it gives me a view into a culture I don't interact with and the comments allow discussion of how these mindsets come into being, and how to counter it.
c/counterpropaganda is precisely for that
c/selfcrit
The best result of the new site decision.
Westerners are not members of the global proletariat, they are our enemies
Says you lot.
” When will it finally be my turn to work in the coal mines?”
After the revolution you WILL be effortposting thrice daily
NO I WANT TO POST CUTE PICTURES OF CATS AND TWITTER SCREENSHOTS OF DINGUSES BEING DINGUSES
Then block the comm and pretend it doesn't exist. Why do you have to ruin other people's fun?
How does this ruin other people's fun?
You have been accused of wrongthink. Please cease having fun immediately because I don’t like it
How does removing the place where people go to do a thing, remove their ability to go to the place and do a thing? Are you 12? Children don't learn how action and consequence are linked until age 13. It would eplain a lot of your behaviour if you were a tween
But you can still do functionally the same thing in c/gossip just not at the same people
Then it's not functionally the same thing, dipshit
We're now at the point in the argument where you are trying to say "it doesn't even matter!" because all your other pathetic excuses have been hollowed out. The fact that you're a mod is sad, the fact that you haven't had the presence of mind to step down is fucking pathetic.
I know a lot of you people can't handle dissent and get irrationally angry when people disagree with you or like things you don't enjoy, but grow up. YOU and YOUR ACTIONS are unhealthy for the site culture. YOUR BEHAVIOUR is toxic. YOU are the problem. Do some self-crit. Take a step back and ask yourself some questions about why you feel the way you feel about these things.
If you don't enjoy what the site is, then don't participate in it. This is not your personal project, but somethig a lot of people build and shape together. The site culture is ever-changing and that is an organic process. Being a mad little pissbaby because people enjoy things you don't, isn't organic, it's actually not even normal. The things YOU and YOUR clique is doing is killing the site. I know you're deluding yourself into thinking if you just get rid of [group] then this site will finally become good. The site is fine, you're the issue, the rot is inside you. You will never enjoy it, because you will always encounter people who disagree with you or dissent with your opinion or call you out for being a dipshit or enjoy things you don't enjoy. Even things you find troubesome in some way.
but I'd be sad to see this community go. Especially if it's killed because of some dork like you.
In the end this is just a niche leftist webforum, the worst case is permanent
Im not saying it doesnt matter, you accuse the mod team of taking away your "fun", so im pointing out you can still have "fun", was dunking on nobodies your only source of fun?
jfc I am becoming a broken record. Is this your idea of durable rhetoric? Is this your idea of non-toxicity? You are still doing basic debatebrodismissiveness as well as throwing out sad attempts at turning this into a personal mental health issue. Childish. Log out, never log on again until you've learned to handle people disagreeing with you.
I haven't actually "accused the mod team of taking away my fun" great reading ability! If you're gonna try to go down that path, actually engage with the specific things I am saying, instead of what you'd like me to be saying.
edit: And we are now at the point in the argument where you try to move the discussion to something else, because you've exhausted the current one. This is why you are trying to make it about me. Loser.
u/TerribleHands literally asked
Oh? And that user is me? Neat!
We were clearly talking in reference to that comment
We clearly weren't you hack
But hey you've managed to change the discussion to one you're actually comfortable in: Something completely meaningless! Good for you that we are no longer talking about the many ways you've showed your ass, the many faults in your reasoning, the fact you're moderating something you dislike like an absolute moron, or any of that stuff, we're instead having a pointless argument about what we were arguing about arguing about.
Once again, do some self crit. The fact you're a mod is pathetic
so you can do functionally the same thing just not functionally the same thing, gotcha, makes sense
it is functionally the same thing, you can still "dunk" on people, they just have to be public figures, that does not in any way diminish the "fun" in it does it?
Then it's not functionally the same thing, dipshit.
Jesus christ you are an insufferable debatebro. Had any normal user done what you did, they'd been banned. Despite you being a condescending smuglord and me therefore treating you like one, it's still probably only me who's gonna catch flak once the rest of your clique wakes up and you can cry to them about it. Eat shit.
so you can't dunk on the same people as before, they have to be public figures now?
yes, according to you guys the purpose of dunking is for it to be fun and cathartic, it still is if the dunking is on public figures , therefore it is functionally the same
so for someone that finds dunking fun and cathartic, can they still perform the function of dunking on someone who isn't a public figure in c/gossip?
no
so it's not functionally the same?
i already explained in what sense it is functionally the same
so it's not functionally the same in all senses?
thats what functionally same means, that its not literally same
okay so if you're going into semantics, can we agree that the term "functionally the same" means two things that have the same function?
yes
okay cool, now could users perform the function of dunking people who weren't public figures on the_dunk_tank?
after rule 8, no, before yes
does rule 8 contain this text: "Comments/Posts made on other instances that are accessible from hexbear are an exception to this."?
yes, but we barely if ever saw any posts that used this exception
But under that exception, it would be allowed for someone to post a bad take from comments/posts made by a private person that have low amount of upvotes/likes/views yes?
yes
okay, with that exception in mind, could users perform the function of dunking people who weren't public figures on the_dunk_tank?
yes, if they were from federated instances
and the_dunk_tank and c/gossip have the same rules, aside from rule 8 where it now also links to counterpropaganda, correct?
Those were inattentively copied from the_dunk_tank, i removed reference to that rule 8 in c/gossip now, now instead the rule is just that subjects of a post must be a public person
ah gotcha, it's good to set the rules up clearly
so now there is no exception for posting private figures on c/gossip, right?
yes
and the_dunk_tank held the function of providing a place where users could post a bad take from comments/posts made by a private person that have low amounts of upvotes/likes/views, provided that private person made that post or comment on other instances that are accessible from hexbear, yes?
yes, but as i said it almost never happened
so the_dunk_tank and c/gossip are not functionally the same now, or at least as of around 15 minutes ago, correct?
Yes, though the difference is minor
what was the point of this conversation?
Do self crit
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Go back to reddit, oh my god you are an insufferable lib smuglord.
You expect others - the site culture at large - to move towards one focused on effortposts and development of rhetoric, yet you yourself cant even be fucking arsed to have basic decency. You can't even be arsed to engage with the arguments, not even in good faith, but just at all. Being a reductive dipshit is sad loser behaviour, go kiss a worm.
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Lol did you get tired of getting dunked on on your main? It's really funny how you can feel this strongly, but be too much of a dweeb to user your account for it
Anyway thanks for the 30$ Please keep the accounts coming, I've got more bets lined up lol
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That is incredibly hilarious coming from you
People disagreeing with you makes you so mad that you instantly resort to misgendering lol. Seriously do some self-crit. People dissenting shouldn't result in you freaking out like this lol
People enjoy making fun of people that you're not allowed to make fun of in c/gossip, clearly.
Yet fake news?
Turns out that comm is cool and good because the most prolific poster over there is a good friend of the admins.
Funny how that works.
Why are you modding a comm you hate?Seems like there's a simple solution to that
You specifically should not be a mod. Carcosa shouldn't step down, you should.
Yeah, not really sure what has happened and as we are some of the most active posters, that worries me a little. Things seem to be blowing up and getting resolved while we're asleep.
Given some of the recent history, sometimes seems like we have a transphobic mod/admin problem, not a transphobic user problem.
Yeah lol the last thread about misogyny I had to bite my tongue not to blurt out "over half this site is queer! Maybe the problem isn't just the 10 cishet guys we keep as pets! Maybe you should look inwards you fucking dorks! Maybe you're the issue!"
queer people also aren't immune to misogyny brainworms unfortunately. I had some qualms about some details of that thread (if I'm thinking of the same one), but to say the mods are The Problem then as now...
I guess I'm just not sure i'm totally on board with the "shitty mod clique" thesis you're operating on. I think there are definitely some people operating more on vibes and their personal comfort, which sometimes results in bad analysis, but on the other hand, we want all sorts of marginalized people to be comfortable here, so its not like you can completely ignore those factors either.
I 100% agree! I tried to word this in such a way as to make it clear I do not disagree with that sentiment at all but I couldn't figure out a way to make it explicitly clear, without being clunky.
What I was trying to say was that there is a group of people who do not care about these issues they allege, but instead use them as an excuse to push thru changes they wish to see in the site, despite those changes being deeply unpopular. They can then say "oh it's only unpopular with bigots!" to avoid any critique.
agree, this was the thing that peeved me the most about the whole debacle honestly. also don't think carcosa needs to step down unless it's also for personal reasons.
For me what pissed me off, was an alt account of one of our users telling everyone to kill themselves if we disagreed with them because apparently we're just a bunch of chauvinistic white males...
That alt was the most heated person in the struggle session
I have a theory 👁
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They're back ITT!
Lmao do they stalk our accounts or something?
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yeah I thankfully missed that part. definitely a bizarre addition to the story
They're back if you want to see them in action lol
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