Permanently Deleted
succdems think they can change the machinations of the Bourgeois State, but it's the Bourgeois State that changes the succdem. She's just preparing for her POTUS run that will suck in the next generation of radicalized youth back into the Dems.
Big difference between Elise Island and Japanese Internment, even if Elise Island sucked.
But White Americans don't want another Elise Island. They want to Double Gitmo. AOC went into the electoralism game with the assumption that her peers in Congress would be arguing in good faith. She's making the same blunder Obama made when he tried to cut deals with John Boehner and Mitch McConnell.
She’s just preparing for her POTUS run that will suck in the next generation of radicalized youth back into the Dems.
Whether AOC runs for higher office or throws in the towel in disgust won't change the material conditions for her constituents. She's a product of radicalized Brooklynites who live shoulder-to-shoulder with the ultra-wealthy and yet can't access simple living needs. Her political trajectory won't change those conditions unless she actually achieves implementation of her succ agenda.
The only way she's bringing people back to the Dem party is if she successfully executes her policy. Another failed Sanders-style run won't accomplish that. It will only disappoint her constituents, leaving them to radicalize or atrophy. She either does an FDR style reform plan or things in this country continue to degrade.
lmao AOC's solution to concentration camps is licensed concentration camps
https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1364341956676096001
The closest thing to a solution she proposes is "DHS shouldn’t exist, agencies should be reorganized, ICE gotta go, ban for-profit detention, create climate refugee status & more."
What's your solution? Leaving unsupervised children with no money, income, or home to fend for themselves? Just find houses and legal guardians for them immediately via magic?
She's quite clear that the children need a place to stay, but it should have better conditions, not be modelled on a prison, and not be run to generage a profit.
SocDems going to SuccDem. And yeah Von Spronsen is a fucking hero. May his sacrifice not be in vain
:william-van-spronsen:
For real though, fuck this
The removed context right before this was:
This is not okay, never has been okay, never will be okay - no matter the administration or party.
Our immigration system is built on a carceral framework. It’s no accident that challenging how we approach both these issues are considered “controversial” stances.
They require reimagining our relationship to each other and challenging common assumptions we take for granted.
It’s only 2 mos into this admin & our fraught, unjust immigration system will not transform in that time.
That’s why bold reimagination is so impt.
DHS shouldn’t exist, agencies should be reorganized, ICE gotta go, ban for-profit detention, create climate refugee status & more.
"And that's why we need concentration camps to have licenses."
How did it end on that note exactly?
Based on the resolution she entered in the house of reps, when she said "require influx facilities w/ children to be licensed" she meant "Investing in effective community-based and community supported case management programs operated by credible non-profits that support immigrants who need it based on a presumption that asylum seekers and immigrants going through immigration court proceedings are free to live in their homes or communities, and save taxpayers’ dollars and protect human rights"
This is just obfuscation, who cares how many cutouts they get to do their dirty work
As someone who has worked in the world of non-profits, I do not trust camps run by non-profits to be more than a marginal improvement. I'm glad she's advocating for at least taking these steps and I'm not going to judge her harshly for working within the confines of her party, but goddamn do I wish someone would go further.
Yes, socdems don't go far enough, and what they do advocate for is easily corrupted or undone by neocons in the next election cycle. The state and borders should be abolished, by force if necessary.
But she's advocating the abolition of the DHS and ICE 2 tweets before this, so OP is a mischaracterisation, possibly unintentional, because twitter is awful.
okay, understood. Twitter is a shit medium for politics and everything else.
credible non-profits that support immigrants
how close are they to the CIA?
The removed context right before this was:
the manufacturing consent used to rationalize liberalism
Kamala will run on putting immigrant kids in government-approved cages in 2024
This place is nothing but an op, and the mods are feds. “Sectarianism” my ass, what a nice carte Blanche to give yourself.
You can look at their post history, the final straw was a meme posted to main saying "Western Leftists waiting for the next narrative from the State Department" which is obviously unacceptable sectarianism.
I've asked you
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Extremely clear questions.
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CAN YOU ABIDE BY OUR COMMUNITY'S RULES?
and
TWO:
WERE YOU TRYING TO CALL ME A LIAR?
These are questions I asked YOU.
You can answer them -- or not.
And you can participate here.
Or not.
The moderation team of /c/main is the moderation team of /c/main.
YOU are NOT on it.
Before 35 minutes ago, you'd never participated in our community.
How we run our community is our business, and the business of the people who participate here in good faith.
We don't allow disrespect; We don't allow verbal or emotional abuse; We don't allow people to brigade our subreddit and post off-topic posts and metadrama.
What YOU think you know about our moderation team is informed solely by third-hand hearsay and screenshots released by someone abusing their position, edited and therefore cherry picked to support a narrative.
That narrative is abusive.
It will not be allowed.
No one will be allowed to come here and back-seat run our subreddit, or light torches and brandish pitchforks.
So now,
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If you want proof this site has gone to shit, see one of the few people here who actually do shit be banned for mocking the enemies of the working class
broke: concentration camps
woke: "oi, ya got a loicense fuh that concentration camp?"In the previous tweet she said "This is not okay, never has been okay, never will be okay - no matter the administration or party." while retweeting a Washington Post article about this
How does that make anything better? She's not calling them concentration camps anymore, is she?
What matters more? The actual political position or the semantics used to express it?
She just gave away her political position though, that's what happens when you stake out ultra left politics and then fall back to earth
Yes. In the same twitter threat she stated her position as:
-Rework the immigration system to remove incarceration
-Ban for-profit prisons
-Provide humane housing conditions for children
-Abolish the institutions responsible for these abuses
Please, stop getting all your information from out-of-context Twitter screenshots.
That's all very nice but it impacts her credibility unless she's going back down to the place and take another photo op like last time, maybe she can make it an annual event.
Performance politics and semantics... You have strange priorities.
She's calling for the abolition of DHS, ICE, for profit incarceration, etc. That is more significant than the vocabulary she is using
Not if it's impacting her credibility and thus chances of passing any of the things she has claimed to support
In the previous tweet
the online version of imperialists manufacturing consent by having Chomsky talk for a minute
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AOC has betrayed the revolution by tweeting less critically of the current administration
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AOC's harsh criticisms of the current administration are actually just manufactured consent and should be dismissed as bullshit
Alright, so which is it, then? Is she disappointing you by talking too softly or too loudly? Are the Leftists losing because they are to gentle or performatively harsh? Which flavor of nihlistic blackpill are we serving up today?
-
I know Orwell is hated by a lot of the left but you all should read “politics and the English language”.
Orwell is a fuck but concepts like the "two minutes hate," "newspeak," the "memory hole," and the "telescreen," as well as gags like "we've always been at war with eastasia" are essentially canonized in the anglo world and there's no point in reaching for more obscure analogies when those suffice.
One thing that the republicans do very well is getting on the same page wrt language. They test the shit out of phrases and words. Partial birth abortion, democrat party, Obamacare, etc. makes their way into your mind to produce a reaction that you're not fully conscious of. It's why the people constantly repeating "read theory" get nowhere. Those ideas don't stick in your head easily, or at least that has been my experience.
I had a poli sci prof in college explain how a republican student went to a conference run by conservatives on how to use and manipulate language to push their agenda.
Yeah my favorite is changing global warming to climate change because climate change sounds less threatening.
The nazis made sure to keep excellent records and inspected their "facilities for solving the jewish problem." Liberals are satisfied when an expect goes "yes, this is fine, look at how many degrees I have."
So please don’t kill me and I was super pissed to read about this facility but it is quite a bit different from the ICE facilities isn’t it? Like she isn’t actually calling the same thing by a different name. Like they aren’t in cages and these aren’t kids who have been separated from theIr parents at the border, but children who literally showed up alone? I guess the better solution would be to just send them directly to a sponsor’s home or something but the impression I got is that this is a facility where kids stay temporarily while being processed to go someplace permanent. Concentration camp would just be super inaccurate, as opposed to the ICE facilities which actually are like concentration camps.
Looking at a few of the influx facilities online, they are not radically different to concentration camp or lower security prison designs. It's high density secure shelter with limited opportunities to properly engage in the usual activities of children, e.g. play, education, physical activities, etc.
No, the better solution is a boarding school model and not tent encampments and similar.
A concentration camp isn’t someplace you stay for 30 days while they find you somewhere to live though. Yeah, the permanent facilities are better, but they can’t take everyone with capacity reduced by half due to COVID.
Well, I wouldn't be so sure the permanent facilities are better, and it's not like the federal government can't find facilities that can be repurposed.
AOC's recent tweets on this are useful https://mobile.twitter.com/AOC/status/1364341956676096001?s=20
Doesn't it scare liberals that they're essentially defending Trump? Most of them are now full on admitting now that the migrant situation is complex and now the new justification is "well what else are we going to do with the minors?". It scares me that liberals will pretty much justify any horrible action because there's a convenenient reason for it. We should be asking ourselves is "why are we jailing migrants", not justifying it to ourselves "oh its ok because the migrant's living condition has improved slightly!". Would FDR be suddenly be justified in the Japanese internment camps if he decided to give the Japanese hotel suites before he contained them for the sake of "bettering morale around the war" or because they might be potwential spies? We should be looking at the essence of the reality, not use whatever bullshit justification the media/liberals or Biden administration try to use to make themselves feel better when in reality its just a function of capitalism that alliows this.
Edited out Hitler comparison.
I don't see how AOC specifically is defending this action as in the tweet before this she said "This is not okay, never has been okay, never will be okay - no matter the administration or party"
Because it's a different situation?
She's condemning the specific conditions, the nature of the American immigration system, and the profiting off of incarceration.
I don't remember her comparing Trump's policies to the Holocaust. Mostly that's a conclusion people lept to on their own after hearing "concentration camp," but the most Holocaust like elements were the separation of children from their families, forced sterilization, and overcrowding leading to unsafe conditions.
This is a holding facility (call it a camp if you want, pointless semantics) for children who arive alone and being opened to reduce crowding.
All her takes are correct here. You do need a facility. You can't leave children with no legal guardian, no money, and no place to stay to fend for themselves. This facility is bad. For profit incarceration is bad. Incarceration based immigration systems are bad. Of course, you didn't read that, did you?
She's the one who engaged in the semantics in the first place and now the chickens are coming home to roost
Semantics meaning... Using words to express opinions?
would Hitler suddenly be an ok person to give the Jews hotel suites before he killed them all
This is exactly the sort of insane argument that results from things like calling this facility a concentration camp. These kids aren’t marked for extermination. You’d be better off actually proposing alternatives for what to do with 12 year olds who show up to the US without their parents than saying Biden is Hitler for the way it’s being handled.
Right, and that’s not what the facility in question is or does. Should we not try to be accurate when talking about these problems?
I didn't see someone calling it an extermination camp? They're not vastly dissimilar in design or function to the earlier concentration camp system for 'protective custody' (prior to the war, attempt at larger scale slave labour and influx of prisoners as they imprisoned more Jewish, gay, Roma people, and prior to the full swing towards extermination with Soviet POWs)
A place for children without parents to stay for one to two months while we find a place for them to live is not “vastly dissimilar in design or function” from a slave labor camp? Really?
I think you missed the bit where I carved out the slave labour? And yes - at a minimum they should let the kids run around some fields, hire some teachers, social workers etc. instead of providing the minimum necessary for them to survive before shunting them off to sponsors
Well, unless there's an some kind of viral outbreak, but what are the chances of that happening?
The facility in question is only being used because all the facilities have been reduced to half capacity to reduce risk of COVID outbreaks. It would seem we can’t really discuss this on this site without being extremely disingenuous about it.
These kids aren’t marked for extermination
Immigrant kids, like Anne Frank, died of disease from institutional neglect.
Yep this is for sure the same thing as the Holocaust, it’s not like the whole reason this facility is in use is because all the facilities have been reduced to half capacity to reduce the risk of disease outbreaks, it’s not like these children are being processed into our society after showing up alone at the border, which is the exact opposite thing of hunting people like Anne Frank down for removal from society as undesirables. It’s the same thing, we should keep making this comparison.
but have you considered - Biden Bad?
People here need to realize Biden isn't Trump. He's worse but in a different way. You aren't gonna get liberals to side with you like you could with Trump. And siding with republicans is out of the question. We have to be precise in our speech and be aware of the full context of the situation if we are to turn libs against him (and other est. dems). He's gonna be better than Trump on nearly everything - immigration, covid, foreign policy etc. Which is why comparing him to Trump would only seek to strengthen his position. You need to judge him by his own actions, and compare it to Obama and others, to show how evil and sinister his policies really are. Let Trump go.
They replaced the wire mesh fencing with actual walls and called it a day.
'Unaccompanied children' is usually code for 'we just arrested the parents'
