“There’s no ethical consumption under capitalism, after all.”
:capitalist-laugh: .
Why don’t you engage with me in the marketplace of ideas instead of trying to silence my speech?
You are literally equating black people to dogs, what the fuck is wrong with you? Of course people care more about slavery than veganism, because humans are more important than other animals why am I even explaining this
The argument only carries over if you value dogs and humans equally, which is a fucking awful take no matter how you spin it.
Also, no one is eating meat purely to spite vegans, at least not anyone on this websiteThe argument only carries over if you value dogs and humans equally, which is a fucking awful take no matter how you spin it.
That is exactly their take. That's the problem.
The argument only carries over if you value dogs and humans equally, which is a fucking awful take
M4A is modern redlining because it doesn't cover my dog. I am a well-adjusted person.
Edit: The DNC should pay me six figures for this.
Soo many racist white libs would unironically love this.
Being against slavery is very expensive. Purchasing goods from countries which pay “livable” wages is very expensive. Much better to buy clothing made in developing countries. higher profit margin for the business as well, which is the most important part.
It's a bad analogy even if you want to be charitable and find nothing wrong with using a slavery analogy when literally anything else could be used without coming across as racist.
No one is eating meat purely because a vegan told them it was bad. They do it because it's the cultural norm, because it's easier, because they like the taste, and a multitude of other reasons that really don't justify animal cruelty but also have nothing to do with whatever PETA posted today. I don't think anyone is arguing that eating meat is somehow morally superior, it's not, but people like OP will gladly pretend they do and alienate 99% of people for no reason.The complaint is that those vegans are just too damn alienating so I guess I can’t go vegan.
Literally point to a single person who has said that unironically. We make both of those points ("vegans are annoying" and "I can't/won't go vegan"), but we have never connected them ("vegans are annoying therefore I won't go vegan"). Seriously, link me a single comment saying "I won't go vegan solely because vegans are annoying" unironically.
oh no please don't compare slavery of sentient beings and slavery of sentient beings. You're not allowed to compare similar (but not identical) things
the same? No. Comparable? Yes. Pigs are smarter than 5 year olds, does that make it ok to enslave 5 year olds? What about disabled people?
Nothing is comparable as long as I can shove my index fingers down my ear hole deep enough that I don't have to hear it.
Because enslavement of any sentient being is cruel and unnecessary. Is that something you disagree with?
I don't think you can really say it's not comparable when painting black people as more akin to livestock than like, people, was a significant part of the rhetoric on why slavery was permissible. The comparison was directly used to justify slavery, and the logic of industrial capitalist exploitation and extermination is still lurking in agriculture today.
That's not to say that slavery and industrial animal agriculture are literally the same thing, but it's still extremely concerning as we hurtle towards ecofascism.
i mean, i've seen the omaha child steaks advertising, pretty sure it's humane and besides, children can't feel pain anyway
Nature is an asshole. Huge CW:
spoiler
Do we murder, rape, eat our own children?
Appealing to nature is just lazy, humans aren't part of nature. We live in a society
Do we murder, rape, eat our own children?
No. Those are generally rejected in human relations. I'm talking about the relationship humans have to nature. I'm not saying humans should model their behavior off some species or another.
humans aren’t part of nature
I fucking hate settlers lol
humans aren't a part of nature
Political ecology would like a word with you
children are my property, therefore i may dispose of them as i please because it doesn't violate NAP
Yes, humans very much evolved as a predator. We have always dominated the weak among us and taken from them without remorse. The history of humanity is one of conquest and violence. There is no other way, embrace this reality.
:capitalist:
Chapo Vegans 🤝 Nazis
Darwinism & Social Darwinism are the same thing.
TIL, thanks for clearing that one up.
Humans have evolved as a predator to other species, and other species have evolved to be prey to humans.
"I'm basically a wolf guys."
Me, discovering the concept of "hunting" on an online Leftist forum:
"Wow, so people just LARP as wolves?"
Modern industrial farming is exactly like hunter gatherer tribes. Human society can never progress past that point and consider moral or ethical points that go beyond the level of someone bashing a rock over someone elses head to steal someone elses dead elk.
This is the racism that just keeps bringing me back to Chapo.
"It's racism to suggest moral and ethical considerations might change as human society changes and our understanding of the world changes with it"
"Trust me my high powered rifle and camouflage make me just like a natural predator when I'm hunting"
a 5 year old's notion of freedom does not extend further than its immediate living conditions, does that make enslaving them ok?
I, as a good abolitionist, always avoid using cotton products and I do my part by shaming others into not using cotton products as well. This will surely end the system of chattel slavery in the South. Consumer choice is surely how systemic change, god forbid revolutionary liberation, occurs. Yes
I, a good abolitionist, oppose slavery in theory, but I won't free my own slaves because individual choices don't matter
I hope you actually sold them to recoup your losses. It’s only fair.
I, as a good abolitionist, always avoid using cotton products and I do my part by shaming others into not using cotton products as well. This will surely end the system of chattel slavery in the South. Consumer choice is surely how systemic change, god forbid revolutionary liberation, occurs. Yes
@jabrd - That was very much an actual abolitionist policy. Source.
It cut into cotton farmers sales, which was just terrible.
:capitalist:
It also didn't end slavery. Without grounded materialist analysis all of these discussions are just a morality circlejerk rather than a discussion of tactics/organization to pursue the political goal of animal liberation. That's why all the accusations going back and forth are about tone and privilege, there's nothing deeper there to discuss
Yes, yes, I agree. It is better to not take any steps against the machine unless it will fully solve the problem.
In the meantime, we must all accept things as they are and continue to purchase goods and services at a predictable and easily forecasted rate of profit.
Unless you're taking part in some organized political group that's actively pursuing the goal of animal liberation (and if you are, great job) you are taking no steps against the machine yourself. This lifestylism bullshit isn't saving any lives, it's just giving you a morality chub to stroke all over the internet
I am assuming you are doing this since you are advocating for it.
Posters caring more about dogs than black people? On my chapo? It's more likely than you think.
Don't forget indigenous people, why take their concerns seriously when you can just accuse them of "race baiting". (Actually happened in a vegan bit post on here)
Using culture as an excuse to do unnecessary harm is definitely something above all criticism.
Culture can never change or adapt in response to advancements in material conditions and our understanding of the world. Reject modernity, return to tradition, and buy more things.
:capitalist-woke: What label do I need to put on this merch to appeal to your individual identity?
how is this caring more about dogs than black people? Is Isaac Bashevis Singer antisemitic when he says "To the animals, all people are Nazis. To the animals, life is an eternal Treblinka"? Is that why veganism is more prominent in black people than white people ? Or are you just hiding behind black people to justify what you're doing?
Comparing eating meat to the Holocaust is a bad take, regardless of who it comes from.
because you said so? If jews can't talk about the Holocaust however the fuck they want, who can? Only you?
It wasn't only the jews killed in the Holocaust. I'm not saying he can't talk about it, I just saying that what he said is a bad take.
It wasn’t only the jews killed in the Holocaust. I’m not saying he can’t talk about it, I just saying that what he said is a bad take.
“No single jew can speak for every jew and therefore all jews should never talk about anything.”
That almost exactly the opposite of what I said. I said that he can say whatever he wants but it doesn't make him free from criticism. Please read the post before you reply to it.
I am a capitalist, I don’t reconsider anything unless I’m being paid to. What is my reconsideration worth to you in the marketplace?
Maybe we should treat all sentient beings better. If you see the issue with enslavement of a race of human beings, you can also see the issue with enslavement of a species.
Incredible suffering, all for the build up to one meal.
That’s the beauty of this fine system, everything is just voting with your wallet.
:capitalist:
Racism? In my chapo? Who could've thought?!?!?
But seriously this is a terrible post, and only gets a pass on here because the user base is 90% white.
Maybe this is a hot take here now, but I think human lives are more important than chicken and cow lives. (And yes, dogs too!)
Finally a good take after 2 days of nonsense from all directions.
Abolitionists are never going to gain support if they continue to be rude to everyone who owns slaves.
abolitionists didn't gain support, there was a fuckin war about it
you're missing the forest for the trees and being extremely racist in the process by doubling down on the trope of comparing black people to dogs
abolitionists didn’t gain support, there was a fuckin war about it
Ah yes, and the support for that war came from thin air.
Your other claim is frankly abhorrent. If you review my history I think you will find your words are slanderous.
Jesus this is most depressing post I've seen on this site yet, and I've been here since like day 3. Not because of you, OP. I agree with your point 100%. It's the folks who think this is a racist take (and getting tons of upvotes) in order to avoid like 5 seconds of introspection about their lives or whatever.
When people benefit from exploitation, they will rationalize away their choices. That's it, that's the comparison.
Yeah I'm disappointed, I thought this site was more open to self-crit but people are so quick to pull out shitty reductionist arguments as soon as something they do is criticized.
People love to think they’re a socialist until they experience even momentary discomfort.
... and that is the moment I can sell products to them.
:capitalist:
The issue isn't 'people think it's a racist take', it was the people posting the takes being unnecessarily racist.
"hey, you're accidentally making my people into the butt of a joke but I agree with the point about less factory farm consumption, maybe tone down the unintentional racism?"
"LOL I HAVE 69 UPVOTES, READ SETTLERS" "Is this honest indigenous person discussing their culture doing an irony?" "Man Bloodmouth carnists will misinterpret everything, why did you have to make my unintentionally racist joke all about race? Can't you see even though I made you into a punchline, I wasn't actually joking about you, it was a joke crafted for a different audience, wherein the punchline is people like you are funny to laugh at" "why do you have to continuously make things about race, after only 2 times of you calling me and my buddy's unintentional racism out?"
All while mods ignore the indigenous people posting and some mods will start their own struggle session implying people disagreeing with vegan trolls are reactionary or whatever, and parody a thread made by an indigenous person wherein posting the comments of a few indigenous vegans is made to directly counter actual racism from posters on this site, therefore missing the point completely.
It's both that and the fact that this take is stupid and racist. Drawing an equivalence between the nigh-insurmountable trauma imposed upon POC and communities through the insanely brutal history of slavery that weighs them down to this day with both structural and spiritual challenge to a morally wrong but entirely incomparable industry of growing and selling animals for food is utterly disgusting. No, because pigs were able to recognize food and basic patterns with the same efficiency as a baseline three-year-old does not make them equivalent to humans whatsoever--adding in downplaying of the utter trauma inflicted by slavery through this comparison only worsens this garbage take.
Honestly, yes to all of this too.
I was just posting a baby-step to that, because there is so much work to even acknowledge directly racist posters were racist, so I didn't even want to open that more conceptual can of worms.
And even then when some people were finally responding to my posts with stuff like "oh you and your people don't see dogs as equals, whatever, you're missing the point", despite me repeatedly saying my people view animals/humans/plants as equals and this understanding underpins why we would eat and use dog without qualms .
Then somehow I am called a reactionary, moralising idealist when that is exactly how many could label veganism and the specific sort of tone-deaf examples of it being posted yesterday.
It’s so delightful. I’m collecting the salt to sell back to them later.
:capitalist:
lmao veganism isn't inherently anti-capitalist I 100% can imagine snowpiercer IRL but with soybars instead of bugbars
You are correct OP in that individual choice did nothing to stop slavery. It took a war and mass murder of neighbors by other neighbors to stop it.
The same is true for animal slavery. It is :LIB: thought to believe that Free Market Choices Will Solve this. Be mad and challenge the system, not the people who are impacted by it. Quit this truly lib bullshit of "vote with your dollar to solve an existential crisis"
Yes, I agree. Better to continue supporting these wonderful legacy products and services.
:capitalist:
You are insufferable and at best a neoliberal
You do not care about your neighbors, as you show with this need to be mad at individuals and thinking that individual choice changes systemic issues
Kid, my name is literally “Capitalist”. Of course I am a neoliberal.
you should sincerely reconsider your life choices if you're trolling your friends
I'm disengaging from this, I hope you actually start to consider your friends and neighbors in your actions you selfish nitwit.
This is the internet and all of you are dollar signs.
:capitalist:
“Oh, you’re an abolitionist? More of you should denounce John Brown’s Brigade, they’re so nutty and extreme. Really bad optics if you want people to take you seriously.”
