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Don't listen to these people, flirting is fine as long you don't do it in an inappropriate situation, don't make it too aggressive, and leave an easy way out for the other person. Don't think of it as a goal-oriented thing, it's just something fun to do sometimes.
Oh. I guess I've been treating it as "Serious business fr" too much
Oh. I guess I’ve been treating it as “Serious business fr” too much
Maurice.txt
Okay, you're right about that, again. But I feel my fear in the title's at least a little bit founded, right?
na, it really is just a have fun and see what comes of it thing. don't think about it too much. if you're being a weirdo like, people are gonna let you know, everybody has different boundaries
na, it really is just a have fun and see what comes of it thing. don’t think about it too much.
So much of my brain refuses to accept it can be "that easy" for some reason, and I HATE that part of my brain. I for some reason I feel there HAS to be some sort of secret code or technique I have to learn.
But the smaller, more rational part of me knows you're right, and that means it's my fault for not trying this whole thing sooner :sicko-wistful:
if you’re being a weirdo like, people are gonna let you know, everybody has different boundaries
It's different being a dude though, people straight up might not because there's all those stories online about dudes who are bad on being told that. Therefore, they might not want to tell me, for fear of that.
The technique you have to learn is literally just being emotionally uninvested in the outcome. Confidence stems from not cultivating expectations. If you’re constantly expecting your encounters to lead somewhere (dates, sex, love, marriage, etc.), you’re making yourself nervous and you’re building that fear of rejection. You’re living in a quantum future where you have either gotten your heart broken or are living in bliss, instead of focusing on the current moment where you could be having a delightful conversation with a fun person.
You don’t need to know if Schrödinger’s relationship is alive or dead. It’s not relevant. Focusing on it only makes it harder for you to relax and have fun.
This one hits the most hard, because it's me. :cri:
instead of focusing on the current moment where you could be having a delightful conversation with a fun person.
You don’t need to know if Schrödinger’s relationship is alive or dead. It’s not relevant. Focusing on it only makes it harder for you to relax and have fun.
I just, I just, speaking as a guy with zero experience, all this advice I've been getting seems overwhelming and too much to follow. How does anyone do it.
ok, people might not always say "you're making uncomfortable right now with X and Y action", but you usually will be able to tell somebody is not comfortable with you. and honestly, don't get caught up on it, there is only so much you can do. if somebody tells you to stop then stop, but like aside from that :shrug-outta-hecks: just be yourself and if people aren't into that then they aren't into that
if somebody tells you to stop then stop, but like aside from that :shrug-outta-hecks: just be yourself and if people aren't into that then they aren't into that
More advice about being myself. Gee, can't I be someone more confident? /s
My last question is: is there a tone change in flirting? Do people like, shift body language, talk different, use a secret phrase? How do I know they're in "flirt mode"? I know this is all novice stuff, but I'm really a novice.
flirting is very context dependant, and playing around with it is part of the 'game' of flirting. it's impossible to pin down what is and what is not flirting without knowing the people, the situation between them, the social context, and so on. a big part of flirting for some people IS the fact you can't tell if they are flirting or not and that's their whole thing, playing coy about flirting. it really is just the kinda thing you can only learn by going in head first and learning from experience
I'll guess I'll have to mess up a bunch, then? And people will just... what, string me along, leave me guessing? Great. I'll be making a lot of mistakes early on, won't I? To think, a guy who’s been raised to not make a mistake, getting told he’ll have to make tons of mistakes to learn, and that I can't just "ace it" first time.
yeah, that's just life fam. you fuck up and you learn from that, there's no secret cheat code or manual to getting it right. you just need to fuck up
I dislike it. But, I guess there's no way around it.
Expect to see me feeling bad in the future about my dating fuck-ups in the megathreads, I guess.
This. Flirting with friends/strangers is no big deal, and dating isn’t serious either. This isn’t some 19th century romance novel where everything must be a massive, sweeping gesture with massive, sweeping emotional overtures. Most of what you’re looking for in a relationship is someone you can relax and joke around with, so that should be the foundation you’re working with from the beginning. It’s more important to own your mistakes or awkwardness and move forward without losing momentum than it is to avoid making mistakes in the first place. A momentary embarrassment is just that, a moment, and can be forgotten just as quickly.
You’re already conscientious if you’re thinking about how to respectfully flirt, so I don’t think I need to warn you about boundaries and not being a creep.
It's so nerve-wracking for a guy who's been raised to never make a mistake... to get told he'll have to make tons of mistakes to learn :yes-honey-left:
Now I don't even know if I've flirted in the past without even knowing it. There's too much ambiguity in it all.
Here’s another secret: it’s not that neurotypicals actually have some great attunement to the thoughts and feelings of other people that neurodivergents lack, it’s that all of their interpretation and processing of these signals and cues is done subconsciously with great confidence. Even when they’re wrong! This is why communication breaks down between NDs and NTs so much, NTs have so much confidence in their interpretation that it’s difficult to convince them of anything else.
It’s totally OK to ask for clarification in social situations, things like “…so does this mean you want to go out for coffee/drinks sometime?” is both a request for clarification and an offer of a date. The important thing is to not let a “no” dash your hopes, brush it off with a small joke or something and don’t mention it again. Getting visibly upset and/or continuing to talk about it is the number one biggest cause of discomfort for the other person, because it makes them feel like their “no” isn’t being respected.
Here’s another secret: it’s not that neurotypicals actually have some great attunement to the thoughts and feelings of other people that neurodivergents lack, it’s that all of their interpretation and processing of these signals and cues is done subconsciously with great confidence. Even when they’re wrong! This is why communication breaks down between NDs and NTs so much, NTs have so much confidence in their interpretation that it’s difficult to convince them of anything else.
Huh, now that I wouldn't have guessed :soviet-hmm:
It’s totally OK to ask for clarification in social situations, things like “…so does this mean you want to go out for coffee/drinks sometime?”
And people won't laugh? Promise? :scared:
In my experience, if they laugh it’s because they’re glad you finally got around to asking.
And if they laugh because they’re not into it, who cares? Everybody isn’t going to be into you and that’s fine. If they laugh in a dismissive way, laugh back. “*chuckle* Wow, you don’t have to rub it in!” or some other decently playful retort doesn’t embarrass you or the other person and lets the conversation move on as if it didn’t happen. If you’re out of high school, most people aren’t going to feel the need to be cruel about it.
I guess all this advice in this thread means I shouldn't be treating this like it's a life or death thing. Guess I gotta fail a lot, but not invest too much in the outcome. And I'll learn how I personally flirt... by learning. A good summation I guess.
Pretty much, yeah. There’s no such thing as “the one”. Romance is made up to sell Hallmark cards and blood diamonds, and prop up Big Valentine. People are, for the most part, just trying to chill, have fun, and get their physiological needs met (that includes nonsexual physical intimacy, socialization, and sexual physical intimacy, and what any person is looking for can and will vary). If you develop a strong bond that you want to nurture for many years, then you’ve done pretty goddamn well. You might miss >80% of the shots you take, but you absolutely miss 100% of the ones you don’t.
There’s no such thing as “the one”. Romance is made up to sell Hallmark cards and blood diamonds, and prop up Big Valentine.
It's all a lie... :bear-despair:
You might miss >80% of the shots you take, but you absolutely miss 100% of the ones you don’t.
I guess even if I fear missing all the shots I take, I should go for it... If I can.
People are, for the most part, just trying to chill, have fun, and get their physiological needs met (that includes nonsexual physical intimacy, socialization, and sexual physical intimacy, and what any person is looking for can and will vary). If you develop a strong bond that you want to nurture for many years, then you’ve done pretty goddamn well.
This sounds almost... simple, downright easy. Almost deceptively so. Or maybe I'm the one who thinks it's harder than it is.
yeah the real trick to dating is giving less of a fuck and respecting consent
yeah that means just don't do it. in a situation where it is happening from the other person, he will respond. but restraint is the best policy to save from being seen as creepy or having regrets.
being able to laugh at yourself and accept rejection easily without taking or making it personal is a good ability to cultivate.
don't think of flirting as a means to achieve anything. it's more like a simple/casual back and forth game you play with someone, like catch or throwing a frisbee. some people are aggressive, some are timid, some are goofy, some are 2cool4school, some are flashy. some don't want to play, but will when they are bored.
just remember it isn't a big deal if you trip over your own feet and eat shit. you will definitely laugh at yourself later in life for all the awkward bungling of youth.
being able to laugh at yourself and accept rejection easily without taking or making it personal is a good ability to cultivate.
Need to cultivate it a bunch...
don’t think of flirting as a means to achieve anything. it’s more like a simple/casual back and forth game you play with someone, like catch or throwing a frisbee. some people are aggressive, some are timid, some are goofy, some are 2cool4school, some are flashy. some don’t want to play, but will when they are bored.
But how do I know when this "game" is being played? Is there, like, a secret phrase or something? A shift in tone? Is there a shift in body language?
just remember it isn’t a big deal if you trip over your own feet and eat shit. you will definitely laugh at yourself later in life for all the awkward bungling of youth.
I'll try to remember that
It’s a shift in tone and body language. Since I’m also neurodivergent and had issues with this well into my early 20’s, here’s a secret: you’ve probably already flirted successfully with people around you and had no idea it was happening. When you have a conversation that feels more energized, natural, and engaging than normal, where you leave feeling better than you started, that was probably flirting.
Obviously this isn’t always true, you can have plenty of great, un-flirtatious conversations with friends and strangers, but it was certainly true for me. The first time this was pointed out to me I had ordered something at a restaurant, made a little small talk with the person behind the counter, and walked away. At the table my friends cornered me and were like “my god how can you flirt that hard and not even ask for their name?”. I was bewildered, I had no idea flirting had occurred.
here’s a secret: you’ve probably already flirted successfully with people around you and had no idea it was happening. When you have a conversation that feels more energized, natural, and engaging than normal, where you leave feeling better than you started, that was probably flirting.
Oh shoot I recognize this.
Obviously this isn’t always true, you can have plenty of great, un-flirtatious conversations with friends and strangers, but it was certainly true for me. The first time this was pointed out to me I had ordered something at a restaurant, made a little small talk with the person behind the counter, and walked away. At the table my friends cornered me and were like “my god how can you flirt that hard and not even ask for their name?”. I was bewildered, I had no idea flirting had occurred.
But I can also see this being me as well :shrug-outta-hecks:
You may find this guide useful. It's probably not perfect, but I've found it to be useful in figuring out what counts as "flirting" as well as offering some practical advice on where and how to do it.
Another problem is that in some rather Puritanical cultures, such as Britain and North America, flirting has acquired a bad name. Some of us have become so worried about causing offence or sending the wrong signals that we are in danger of losing our natural talent for playful, harmless flirtation.
So, to save the human race from extinction, and preserve the foundations of civilisation, Martini commissioned Kate Fox at the Social Issues Research Centre to review and analyse all the scientific research material on interaction between the sexes, and produce a definitive guide to the art and etiquette of enjoyable flirting.
(emphasis mine) two interesting paragraphs to place after one another. however useful the article may be in the end, 100 bucks says a mayocide chud funded this. treating flirting as a subject of clinical study is also a very anglo thing to do.
but make sure that you are guided by the behaviour of the most highly regarded individuals in the company, not the office 'clown', 'groper' or 'bimbo'.
I will not stand for this. Bimbofy the entire company!
If you are mainly looking for flirting opportunities, avoid these high-flying groups, and seek out clubs full of happy, sociable under-achievers.
Failsons unite!
Research has also shown that men have a tendency to mistake friendly behaviour for sexual flirting.
only the pathetic or desperate would imagine that every passing exchange of flirtatious banter is a prelude to matrimony.
Couldn't be me. Never would I ever.
Most successful marriages and long-term relationships are between partners of more or less equal good looks.
I'd love to see the science on "good looks". I wonder if it involves calipers?
Evolution has favoured males who select young, attractive mates and females who select partners with power, wealth and status.
Have humans evolved notably since the introduction of power and wealth?
Once you have approached your target
listen for any disclosure of personal information
pick up artist vibes all over, maybe that's just how it must be in sciencey language but worth noting
racecourse etiquette
What's with the continuous horse race references?
The biggest mistake most people make with opening lines is to try to start a flirtation, rather than simply trying to start a conversation. If you think about your opening line as initiating a conversation, rather than starting a flirtation, use the IIC formula and pay close attention to the verbal and non-verbal response, you cannot go wrong. Even if your target does not find you attractive and declines your invitation to talk, you will avoid causing offence and you will avoid the humiliation of a direct rejection.
unambiguously good advice, especially when fear of rejection is at play
Negativity, for example, is real turn-off. If you talk too much about the bad side of things, and constantly complain about the world or your own problems, your partner will soon get bored and fed up.
bad news chapos
This is not a matter of 'political correctness', but of basic social skills.
goes for basically all PC discourse tbh. the fact that "don't be a dick" is seen as political is pretty bleak
(Males please note: 80% of women think that they are too fat. In one American survey, women were asked what were the three words they would most like to hear from a male partner. The most common answer was not, as expected, "I love you", but "You've lost weight". While you should not make any comment on a woman's figure unless you know her well, this compliment might please a girlfriend or close female friend.)
ok this advice is just plain abusing (and reinforcing!) beauty standards to manipulate women. "I see the bulimia is going great for you!"
Every salesperson knows that there is little point in establishing a great rapport with potential customers, attracting their interest, gaining their trust and so on, if you fail to 'close' – 'closing' being sales-speak for actually making the sale, securing the contract, getting the customer to hand over money or sign on the dotted line. Sales staff are specifically trained in 'closing techniques' to help them achieve this all-important goal.
In the same way, if you are genuinely attracted to your flirting partner, and want to see him or her again, none of the flirting skills in this Guide will be much use unless you can 'close' effectively. In this case, your goal in 'closing' is to secure not a contract or a sale, but the chance to meet again.
Love to use capitalist metaphors to guide human informal social life, very cool!
Despite the disapproval of 17th-century Puritans, Victorian moralists and their modern equivalents in both the 'moral majority' and 'political correctness' camps, these basic flirting instincts persist, and the human species survives.
No one self-identifies as PC. wtf. If basic flirting instincts persisted, you wouldn't be writing this guide.
I guarantee you that the author of that guide has some very non-PC ideas about "western Women"
Looks good to me. I'll have to read the whole thing :very-smart:
Desperate for anything that helps even a little
Asking people out at a reasonably early point can help build "armor" for handling rejection. You'll probably get rejected right off the bat sometimes (they're already dating someone and didn't know / attraction wasn't mutual / they don't want a relationship) and this sucks but also is less sucky over time. You'll also go on first and second and third dates and maybe it won't work out for various reasons. This will give confidence in sensing mutual attraction and feeling like a legitimate dating option for other people. Though there are still emotions to deal with when things don't work. Overall, you should start to feel comfortable with these situations.
You’ll also go on first and second and third dates and maybe it won’t work out for various reasons. This will give confidence in sensing mutual attraction and feeling like a legitimate dating option for other people. Though there are still emotions to deal with when things don’t work. Overall, you should start to feel comfortable with these situations.
Guess I shouldn't feel bad for being unable to read that right away with no experience, huh?
Yeah, but...all too easily it is misconstrued as sexual harassment. Then a complaint gets filed...I think we all know how this story ends.
did i say to do it at work? don't do it at work. the only thing you should be doing at work is time theft and organizing.
if you can't play a game of catch without the fear of braining your partner, then don't play catch.
That's assuming everyone is neurotypical, and honestly that's a pretty heartless way to view the situation.
I have The Autism (tm) and I feel much the same way too. It's hard to put yourself out there. It's even harder when there's no dedicated place to meet people. It would be a lot easier if we had dedicated places for romance besides dating apps.
Yeah, capitalism truly has robbed us of all but the most atomized relations and interactions.
(also how do you do the 'tm' like that?)
It's just fun.
I really wish there were more clear rules on when flirting is and isn't acceptable. As it is I sometimes feel like the only ethical way is to use a terrible app.
On the other hand, I've gotten better at flirting this year. It is a skill, and takes a great deal of practice. I would describe it as playfully exploring your boundaries with another person, in which you both figure out what your boundaries with each other are. It's fun but very easy to jump over someone else's boundaries, so you have to be very careful.
Ugh, I guess it's a skill to work on as much as any other skill.
The thing is, discovering boundaries is hard and can be especially exhausting if you have to deal with it all day. This is why flirting shouldn't be acceptable with everyone, all the time. Especially on the job.
Oh, definitely not acceptable all the time, especially not on the job. To sort of find out boundaries to find out where they are sounds a bit difficult. But I think I'll be able to manage.
this is why just not flirting is the best option. if someone wants to flirt they make it very obvious, and you will respond. but never initiate or press on with it. bad ideas.
Special characters are pretty easy on linux if you bind the compose key. You just do compose + t + m = ™
There are logical combinations of a lot of other special characters as well, like compose + 1 + 3 = ⅓ or compose + ^ + 2 = ² or my favorite, compose + C + C + C + P = ☭
On windows you can use WinCompose for the same functionality, or you can use the special characters dialog (you can find it by searching "special characters" in the start menu)
I'm a trans woman so my advice is limited here BUT
My bf (who I'll probably marry eventually) would get very nervous/ make dumb little mistakes all the time when we were first going out. I knew he didn't mean it and he seemed to be a good person in all other aspects, so I simply ignored these mistakes. I'm sure other women do this as well.
No, it's good advice. Knowing that making one mistake won't ruin the whole thing makes it less stressful to think about or do.
sometimes the 'mistakes' are cute and endearing, even. like one time he was so nervous his hand was trembling a bit and i noticed so i decided to give him a cuddle to calm him down. hes this big burly dude and he was so nervous that his hand was shaking! very cute
but some of the mistakes were pretty big mistakes. two times he accidentally triggered me due to my ptsd. but my triggers are hard to get used to (if your voice is too loud or if you touch a certain part of my back i freak out), so obviously i just kept going and it was fine in the long run once he got used to them. the main thing is he was sincerely apologetic and even did things to make up for the bad experience (re: found a fun live performance for us to watch together)
sometimes the ‘mistakes’ are cute and endearing, even. like one time he was so nervous his hand was trembling a bit and i noticed so i decided to give him a cuddle to calm him down. hes this big burly dude and he was so nervous that his hand was shaking! very cute
Good to know mistakes aren't bad and I should worry less about making them :comfy:
but some of the mistakes were pretty big mistakes. two times he accidentally triggered me due to my ptsd. but my triggers are hard to get used to (if your voice is too loud or if you touch a certain part of my back i freak out), so obviously i just kept going and it was fine in the long run once he got used to them. the main thing is he was sincerely apologetic and even did things to make up for the bad experience (re: found a fun live performance for us to watch together)
...or maybe I should worry about them, sorry to hear all that.
its just something that happens, you know? even my best friends trigger me sometimes. but the reason theyre my friends is theyre apologetic and do things to help me calm down (one has a stash of cookies in her car lmao). if you do end up dating a girl with these sorts of issues, just be attentive and listen to what she needs to happen for her to calm down _
my bf is very good at this now, he calms me down faster than anyone else ever has. love the big bear hugs and the neck rubs
if you do end up dating a girl with these sorts of issues, just be attentive and listen to what she needs to happen for her to calm down _
Well, I'll definitely make sure to learn that by the book to the letter if I date anyone with issues like that. Want to be like the best bf ever in that situation.
I worried about making those kinds mistakes making me a bad person, but I guess if even people you know do it unintentionally I shouldn't think so..
Also your friends and bf sound awesome omg
Flirting is a social skill. In the sense that a social skill is learned, developed, cultivated, taught, and intuited.
Social conversational skills isn't really about being affable, but it is a real ability to communicate with your audience in the same way a comedian, salesman, politician, influencer, or public figure/speaker has to convince or move others. You obtain some control over these skills through practice and exposure. This means failing and recognizing where you went wrong (or right!).
Creeps are people who give unwanted persistent attention. If you strike out, and there's no chance for a follow up, just back off and be respectful aboot it.
Flirting is a social skill. In the sense that a social skill is learned, developed, cultivated, taught, and intuited.
Social conversational skills isn’t really about being affable, but it is a real ability to communicate with your audience in the same way a comedian, salesman, politician, influencer, or public figure/speaker has to convince or move others. You obtain some control over these skills through practice and exposure. This means failing and recognizing where you went wrong (or right!).
Guess I better develop that skill, then. And it would be important for me to acknowledge I will probably have some early successes as well as failures
The thing that makes guys come off as creepy is when they try to do it secretly or are otherwise evasive about their intentions. For example, being weirdly talkative with a person they're interested in without ever making their intentions clear. It means that the other person doesn't know what the guy's trying to do and puts the onus on them to handle it.
Flirting basically just involves very friendly interactions with someone you're interested in, quickly escalating it if you interpret some reciprocity, and quickly backing off if you don't. Just don't be the guy who is emailing your lab partner 3 weeks after class ended to ask how she's doing.
The easiest way to find partners if you aren't good at just picking up women is through social networking (the IRL kind, not the internet one). So trying to expand your friend group as much as possible is key. If you click with someone, try asking her out, and if she doesn't seem interested, be gracious and nonchalant about it.
Don't be overtly sexual. It's not very hard to just not talk about them as an object, I don't think you should have trouble with this. Just don't do it, it's not hard.
If you're not confident in your ability to read boundaries, let the other person set them and make the big moves where it matters (typically initiating sex or similar contact). But a simple show of interest doesn't (and shouldn't) involve all of that.
edit: And don't listen to the BruceWillis person in here. They're a weird loser fr
Flirting basically just involves very friendly interactions with someone you’re interested in, quickly escalating it if you interpret some reciprocity, and quickly backing off if you don’t. Just don’t be the guy who is emailing your lab partner 3 weeks after class ended to ask how she’s doing.
Well, that... doesn't seem impossible? Huh.
And I guess I'll have to be open about any intentions then, huh? Hope that isn't a mistake.
And I guess I’ll have to be open about any intentions then, huh? Hope that isn’t a mistake.
One of the worst things you can do is be disingenuous about your intentions.
This is normal for someone who respects / wants to respect others and their boundaries but isn't sure how to be forward without breaking those boundaries. This applies to most dudes, since they're not socialized even in a little bit healthy way.
My advice is that when you think you have picked up on mutual attraction, either wait for them to keep flirting and do so mutually or just go straight to asking them out. If you do this early and politely, it will not seem weird at all and you can move past it to friendship if the other party is interested.
The danger zone is letting these questions turn into a strong attraction on your side and not moving forward with them personally, which turns into territory of pining and sometimes even toxic "friendzone" thinking. It's not the end of the world if you do get into pining territory, it happens to the best of us and can still sometimes result in a relationship, but you really shouldn't make this your only response.
You can still ask out friends later as well, but it's even harder to navigate because friendly closeness is similar to romantic intimacy when the two people may be attracted to one another. If you have trouble teasing these things apart, asking somewhat early means you can have some modicum of steering the relationship ship. Though of course, only when you think there's mutual attraction.
The danger zone is letting these questions turn into a strong attraction on your side and not moving forward with them personally, which turns into territory of pining and sometimes even toxic “friendzone” thinking. It’s not the end of the world if you do get into pining territory, it happens to the best of us and can still sometimes result in a relationship, but you really shouldn’t make this your only response.
Yeah, been there before, not fun
My advice is that when you think you have picked up on mutual attraction, either wait for them to keep flirting and do so mutually or just go straight to asking them out. If you do this early and politely, it will not seem weird at all and you can move past it to friendship if the other party is interested.
Well, I can be more direct with this I think, best to ask early I think
Good ole high school years when a girl was sucking on my finger when we were alone in her dorm room and i asked her what the fuck is she doing and left lol
Just be a picker, a grinner, a lover, and a sinner, and play your music in the sun. And speak of the pompitus of love--after all, some people call you Maurice.
I don't think that dating apps only work for hot people, but I think it's easy for them to inflict psychic damage, especially if you don't have the right mindset. I find them difficult because a part of me feels like I'm passing judgement on people, and it's easy to feel like not getting a response is a failure. Rationally, I would say that in both of those cases it's more about compatibility than an evaluation of a person's worth, but it can be hard to convince myself of that sometimes. I feel like people who approach it with the wrong mindset are more likely to get frustrated more quickly, or they may feel more stressed such that when they do connect with someone they give off bad vibes. If you enjoy/don't mind the process, it doesn't really matter if you get infrequent responses, but for some people it can feel like labor and they get frustrated if they aren't rewarded for it.
One thing that's clear to me is that people vastly overestimate both appearance, and the degree that appearance is innate rather than the result of time, effort, and skill.
Hope that comes across as just sharing thoughts and not yelling or whining or anything.
That's true.
I suppose I would say that if you're going to a bar with that intent, there's generally a degree of mental preparation and psyching yourself up that isn't necessarily there in a dating app. There's also a possibility of going with friends who can provide encouragement and emotional support and validation. I'm not necessarily trying to argue that one approach is better or worse, though, it's not something that I've figured out.
I’m reasonably convinced the people who have absolutely zero luck are either in a weird social bracket (some aesthetically-obsessed LA nightlife scene or similar where normal people can’t command attention), or the more likely option, they’re just horrible to talk to.
I think maybe I do. I also don't know how I fit on the spectrum. Surely closer to the sonic OC end. However, I have had reasonable romantic success with never flirting.
My go to pick up line is, " you look bored, wanna try to have fun?" if it works "did you have fun, wanna try more later?" if they didn't want to or they didn't feel it then mission's off. This is a self selecting bias as anyone who looks bored at the bar is probably someone I would be interested in talking to anyway. Now that online dating is even more of a thing, I pretty much only bother people in the context of them trying to find people to get kinky with so it cuts out a lot of the ambiguity.
Everyone's advice makes dating seem way easier and less stressful than I make it out to be in my head
There are diffrent ways to do it. I know some male type people who are way more... active? In finding dates. They are working on their style more. They are approaching people more. They are rising and grinding about it. They are as a consequence making more mistakes. They are also getting more dates. Thay doesn't suit my temperment. Nor yours, from what I gather. Some skills about fashion and the art of conversation help to pratice, but if you are content in a lower energy syle then it really isn't necessary. You are in control of what you do you know? There is ultimately always going to be some elements of friction in figuring out the best way for you to interface with the world but dependong on your temperment there are solutions to problems that be found. You seem like you got the analytical type metacognition to figure out what works for you comrade. I am confident in you.
Yeah, I thought for a moment that I HAD to do the rise and grind mindset with this, causing me trepidation. Glad to know I can be lower energy about this
Chances are, you aren't seen as a creep. I have the same anxiety, but people tell me I'm non-threatening and even somewhat charming.
Well, I'm glad you have confidence that I'm not seen as one :comfy:
You're possibly way more socially developed than I was at 18, and I had my first girlfriend at around 20.
Being polite is not bad. Being considerate is not bad. Being unusual is not bad. Cultivating a sense of bashfulness about some non-specific person or group judging you is not bad to anyone else, but it will slow you down.
Something came up last Friday so I missed seeing you stream, but I would bet you are very much not a douchebag and sound interesting and non-threatening. That last one is pretty important, in my case at least.
Well, I'm streaming the same time today, if you have time, post here
I usually like giving you advice but in this case I have no insight whatsoever, good luck 👍
Thanks, the simple stuff is helpful too sometimes
If it makes you feel better, when I was your age I was very cold and emotionally repressed, and had no business being in a relationship, even if I hadn't been way too shy. After a lot of progress, I've just about made it to the starting line, when it comes to romance.
It's funny that there's this implied idea that you should know yourself when you're 21. Nope, not me, I'm still got a lot of learning :yes-honey-left:
Context is the biggest thing. If you're at a place people socialize, just talk to people. If you're at work, at school, at the grocery store, don't talk to strangers and treat all your colleagues like they don't have genitals at all. "Flirting" is something you realize after the fact.
"Flirting” is something you realize after the fact.
So it's not something you recognize at the time? Hm.
Yeah, it's a feeling or a "vibe" as the kids say in a lot of cases. The words don't really matter so much, if you typed it out, a lot of "flirting" would just seem like a normal conversation because it misses all the little pauses, the sparkle in your eyes, the tone, etc.
Hmm, knowing that there's no special words makes it a lot easier in my mind
Fuck off. It's really fucking hard to ask people out. "Just be attractive", stop being such a piece of shit.
I haven't asked anyone out in at least 2 years, but thanks for making me feel like a piece of shit.
I didn't do anything to you or say anything about you, chill the fuck out.
Just don’t do it and
Just be attractive fam idk
You basically imply here that I should never flirt and "just be attractive". Thanks, glad to know that being autistic is a death knell for a potential love life.
Been working out, dressing better, grooming myself better, bunch more stuff. I've been trying, believe me.
Feels like it's all a waste if it doesn't attract anyone sometimes.
But I know that line of thinking's obviously bull: I can still improve myself for its own sake even with no one else, after all.
Still, do you got any other advice?
keep on going with that stuff it is gonna pay off probably sooner than you think
Yeah do something till you're good at it and people will like you for that. That's one way to be attractive.
it's normal. be less forward than you think. the ladies will let you know. trust that.
I'm not forward at all lol
I don't even try, that's my problem
just don't. if a lady likes you she will let you know. forget all the patriarchal conditioning. this is true.
if a lady likes you she will let you know.
Well, that's not happening anytime soon I don't think :sadness:
forget all the patriarchal conditioning. this is true.
It probably is true for others.
But no matter the case, you're right, I shouldn't try to make the first move.
Just dropping in to say. Please don't listen to that advice.
Majority of women will not make the first move, and if you sit around waiting for that to happen, you will be single for years at a time. Some women will, most will not.
It might be patriarchal conditioning, but it is the world we live in.
Feel free to make the first move. It's not a crime. Just be respectful to her and take the hint if she seems uninterested.
Feel free to make the first move. It’s not a crime. Just be respectful to her and take the hint if she seems uninterested.
Ugh, that's so stressful that I gotta do it. I fear being rejected too much. But you miss all the shots you don't take I guess...
I get that. Everyone feels that to a certain extent. It's human.
But, in my experience, it does get better. Flirting never came naturally to me, but I learned how to do it with practice. Here's the advice that I would give to myself if I could write a letter to the teenage kissless virgin that I was a decade ago.
There's a few things you're juts gonna have to accept.
1- You have to accept that you will get rejected. This is okay. I've been rejected more times than I could even recall. That's okay. Especially if you are looking for LTR (as I typically do) you only need to get it right once, and then you can forget about it for as long as your relationship lasts. Missing 20 shots in a row doesn't matter if the 21st shot is a bull's eye. To paraphrase a certain Irish militant group "Today we were unlucky, but remember: we only have to be lucky once."
2 - You have to accept that you might create an awkward situation. This is okay. Causing an awkward/uncomfortable situation is not the end of the world. It's not desirable, but it happens sometimes. What you said up there in OP is stuff that I identify with a lot, because I often feel it also. As you said, a man basically has to make the first move, because (as I said) the majority of women will not make the first move in the majority of situations (actually, I've found that a handful of them also won't make the first, second, or third move, my current SO was like this).
Combine the fact that you have to make the first move with the fact that you can't know with complete certainty if a woman is interested before you make that move, and we wind up with the fact that you are very likely to hit on/flirt with/ask out a woman that is not interested in you. This may indeed be awkward and uncomfortable.
That's okay. Accidentally causing someone to feel awkward for a few minutes does not make you a sex pest. Just learn how to take a 'no' graciously.
Sometimes women may not give a direct 'no. Often they hint at it. They will indicate that they are not interested by, say, ghosting you, or if you are in person, they will lean away from you. They might say "yes" to a date and then ghost you later when you try to set it up over text. So learn how to take a 'no' graciously and also learn how to take the hint graciously. So, say, you try to flirt on the first date by putting your hand on her shoulder, and you find that she leans away from you, and doesn't reciprocate your touch. Take the hint. If you take the hint and back off after getting it, no harm, no foul. It doesn't make you a sex pest
Accidentally causing someone to feel awkward for a few minutes does not make you a sex pest.
Feel like this can't be said enough
Then I oughtta remember it well :stalin-approval:
1- You have to accept that you will get rejected. This is okay. I’ve been rejected more times than I could even recall. That’s okay. Especially if you are looking for LTR (as I typically do) you only need to get it right once, and then you can forget about it for as long as your relationship lasts. Missing 20 shots in a row doesn’t matter if the 21st shot is a bull’s eye. To paraphrase a certain Irish militant group “Today we were unlucky, but remember: we only have to be lucky once.”
I guess I worry about all those failures bringing me down :yes-honey-left:
2 - You have to accept that you might create an awkward situation. This is okay. Causing an awkward/uncomfortable situation is not the end of the world. It’s not desirable, but it happens sometimes. What you said up there in OP is stuff that I identify with a lot, because I often feel it also. As you said, a man basically has to make the first move, because (as I said) the majority of women will not make the first move in the majority of situations (actually, I’ve found that a handful of them also won’t make the first, second, or third move, my current SO was like this).
But what IS the first move?! Is it asking her to coffee, it it talking to her, what?
Combine the fact that you have to make the first move with the fact that you can’t know with complete certainty if a woman is interested before you make that move, and we wind up with the fact that you are very likely to hit on/flirt with/ask out a woman that is not interested in you. This may indeed be awkward and uncomfortable. That’s okay. Accidentally causing someone to feel awkward for a few minutes does not make you a sex pest. Just learn how to take a ‘no’ graciously.
No, I can take a no without complaining or being rude to who says it. It's how I start taking it as an indictment of who I am as a person that's bad...
So, say, you try to flirt on the first date by putting your hand on her shoulder, and you find that she leans away from you, and doesn’t reciprocate your touch. Take the hint.
Also, touching someone casually on the first date isn't bad? I'm a bit touch-averse, so this is all new to me.
I guess I worry about all those failures bringing me down
Well, it's never fun. I don't like it either. It doesn't feel like the end of the world to me tho like it used to. I don't like to be rejected, but I'm calloused to it now. It doesn't hurt me now nearly as much as it did when I was 17. I honestly think that getting a few rejections can work well as a form of exposure therapy. Having past successes help also, because it gives you the knowledge that "Ok well, [ex-gf1] and [ex-gf2] both dated me for months, so obviously I can get a gf, I just need to wade thru the rejections until I get a find a lady I click with."
But what IS the first move?! Is it asking her to coffee, it it talking to her, what?
This is really context depended imo. Some people meet on tinder/in a bar and directly go to the other's apt to bang the very same night without even going on a real date. If you meet someone thru work or class or whatev, this is prob not gonna happen like that.
IMO, for a first date, coffee is fine. Just say like "Hey, you free this weekend? let's go out on a date and have lunch/a coffee/a beer at [place]." I always use the word "date" because I think it's better to be direct and up front about what you want. I don't say 'let's hang out' or whatever when I actually want to
bust a nuthave a mutually respectful romantic encounter.A coffee or a couple beers at a lowkey bar (someplace where the music isn't so loud you can't talk) is best imo. It doesn't need to be fancy. You're getting to know each other.
Also, touching someone casually on the first date isn’t bad? I’m a bit touch-averse, so this is all new to me.
Personally, I am not touch averse. I use touch to show affection. I like to receive touch. I'm a hugger. I hug my male, platonic buddies after a hang out and have no qualms about putting my arm around my best bros or even sharing one of these . I also like to touch the lady I'm dating. If your date is fine with it and you are also fine with it, why would it be bad? Some women like it, some do not. Generally you can tell by paying attention to those aforementioned hints. If its unclear, I see no problem with literally just straight up asking "hey, is this okay?" or whatever. You start with some small, subtle, casual touch, (brief touch on the wrist, hand or shoulder) if she responds positively (doesn't give the 'stop' hints), there's no problem with more touching, is there? And again, if its unclear (it usually is not to me, if I pay attention to the signs) , I can literally just ask directly.
Your first date goes well and you're walking from the cafe to the frozen yogurt place down the road for desert? I see no problem with putting my arm around her waist, as long as she's fine with it, where's the problem? This is 2021, people out here literally fucking someone who's name they don't even know.
edit:
No, I can take a no without complaining or being rude to who says it. It’s how I start taking it as an indictment of who I am as a person that’s bad…
again: accidentally causing someone to feel awkward for a few minutes does not make you a sex pest.
Well, it’s never fun. I don’t like it either. It doesn’t feel like the end of the world to me tho like it used to. I don’t like to be rejected, but I’m calloused to it now. It doesn’t hurt me now nearly as much as it did when I was 17. I honestly think that getting a few rejections can work well as a form of exposure therapy. Having past successes help also, because it gives you the knowledge that “Ok well, [ex-gf1] and [ex-gf2] both dated me for months, so obviously I can get a gf, I just need to wade thru the rejections until I get a find a lady I click with."
Well, no successes here yet. And I'm a bit past the 'end of the world' stage. So bring on the exposure therapy I say.
IMO, for a first date, coffee is fine. Just say like “Hey, you free this weekend? let’s go out on a date and have lunch/a coffee/a beer at [place].” I always use the word “date” because I think it’s better to be direct and up front about what you want. I don’t say ‘let’s hang out’ or whatever when I actually want to have a mutually respectful romantic encounter.
Well, that's the one I've using so far in college, so I'll keep using it I guess
Personally, I am not touch averse. I use touch to show affection. I like to receive touch. I’m a hugger. I hug my male, platonic buddies after a hang out and have no qualms about putting my arm around my best bros or even sharing one of these . I also like to touch the lady I’m dating. If your date is fine with it and you are also fine with it, why would it be bad? Some women like it, some do not. Generally you can tell by paying attention to those aforementioned hints. If its unclear, I see no problem with literally just straight up asking “hey, is this okay?” or whatever. You start with some small, subtle, casual touch, (brief touch on the wrist, hand or shoulder) if she responds positively (doesn’t give the ‘stop’ hints), there’s no problem with more touching, is there? And again, if its unclear (it usually is not to me, if I pay attention to the signs) , I can literally just ask directly.
Well, those signs are usually very unclear to me, so I'm glad asking isn't looked down upon, as I'll be doing that a lot.
Your first date goes well and you’re walking from the cafe to the frozen yogurt place down the road for desert? I see no problem with putting my arm around her waist, as long as she’s fine with it, where’s the problem? This is 2021, people out here literally fucking someone who’s name they don’t even know.
Forgive me for being... A novice, but I don't think I could never be bold enough to do the arm around the waist on a first date I'm sorry :crush:
And when I said taking rejection as an indictment of myself... I meant my self-worth or overall attractiveness.
But it is good to know I'm not being seen as a sex pest if I do get a "no"
you never know really. some girl could let you know any day. just try to relax.
Guess I'll have to keep waiting then. Least the onus isn't on me?
Don't listen to them lmao
This might not be the site to ask for relationship advice. There's a high number of literal teenagers here, many of whom are weird shut ins.
Idk, I've gotten good advice here before on the megathreads at least
I would recommend not listening to the others and listening to Bruce instead. Try to establish yourself first as a independent person with your own unique traits you are proud of even without the attraction of others to confirm it for you. This will breed confidence and others can basically smell confidence (or a lack thereof) and you will find yourself in more favorable situations. It seems like a lack of confidence is your biggest problem (as it is with most people) and contrary to popular belief you aren't going to be able to get that from other people, it comes from within and feeling comfortable being yourself.
Also, women can make "the first move" without straight up asking you out, but that's not the first move, that's just making mutual attraction official. You should learn a bit about body language and take notice of the kind of cues people give you when you are talking with them, if it looks good, just slowly turn up the heat with some light flirting and keep watching the body language. If you and another person are on the same page you will be able to tell without cold calling asking someone out. (This never made much sense to me, wouldn't you want to learn about the other person in a casual setting before you started dating them??)
just don’t. if a lady likes you she will let you know
Fasttrack to inceldom 101
