Been seeing a lot of people coming in here handwringing about 'red fash' and 'muh authoritarianism.'
Figuring that this will be a common occurrence for a while, so wanted to make a collective thread here. The purpose of this is to just have one spot as so we don't fill up the comm with a ton of posts about it.
Post away, comrades!
Authoritarianism is when you resist being crushed into paste by the capitalist powers of the world.
Well only if you achieve some modicum of success greater than Rojava or EZLN.
Authoritarianism is when the left calls out genocidal language and defends itself against genocidal actions by fascists actively perpetrating genocide
seems kinda authoritarian to limit where we can dunk on people calling s authoritarian
I wonder how many of these dipshits are just on lemmy due to reddit's blackout and will migrate back over once their reactionary sub of choice comes back online? It's pretty fast how quickly they astrotrufed lemmy and turned it into another lib/chud hangout.
I’d say more like 90% will go back and maybe half of those will continue to use both at least temporarily. Never underestimate the lack of commitment to an online boycott.
Wake up babe, time for your daily tankie concern post:
https://lemmygrad.ml/post/728105
human rights atrocities like Tiannenmen Square and the Holodomor
The "I’m pretty pro-left/socialist " only have one joke.
"Hey fellow leftists! Don't we all like to obsess about the zero people run over by tanks in Tienanmen Square because we like to repeat CIA propaganda? And misspell the name to show how much we care? Also, have you hear this Nazi holocaust denial about a double genocide where the people that saved Europe from the Nazis are actually bad? Yeah, socialism is repeating things the CIA and Nazis make up about Actually Existing Socialism, and the more falsehoods you spread, the more pro-left you are."
I mean, there are two major systems of transliteration and that's following neither of them, nor the official Roman Alphabet name or the common accepted spelling in anglophone press. So there are many standards of plausible spelling and it matches none of them.
These are the same people who say they prefer socialism and not communism, and when asked why or what they mean they’ll turn their mouths into a portal leading directly to Langley Virginia
Thing is, there's plenty of valid criticism from Marxist-Leninists about the actions of the USSR and PRC in those specific instances. The CPC themselves will tell you they could have handled certain things better (and they've improved since then). The issue is the fact this user brings up those two events in particular and specifically label it "the Holodomor" which means you'll know what to expect.
(That said, it's important to separate baby leftists from libs acting in bad faith, and to be patient with the former. Lots of us have been there)
The issue is, and always has been, that it is possible to educate baby leftists when the majority are "tankies". When the majority of a forum are libs acting in bad faith, there is no sustainable way to sort through the nonsense.
Burnout is a real thing that needs to be accounted for.
I tried to write a comment in response to that. I tried to put on my "nice" hat. I dunno why I try, it's not like they're gonna listen. Tried to use the BBC as a source, because they're "trustworthy" (lmao) to hopefully create some kind of doubt in their heads. I just know that when I became a leftist I was still a little "But, like, I heard about what they did in Tiananmen, isn't that true?", and when sources were thrown at me, I started to question my own opinions, and actually changed them very quickly. Maybe I'm naive though.
Let's see how many downvotes I get :michael-laugh:
Edit: Oh, and sorry for not being able to source Holodomor counterpoints. I've yet to read up on like concrete sources that can disprove things to people who are innundated by propaganda. I'm afraid that bringing up that Stalin isn't a Wizard, and can't just cast a famine spell isn't enough. And like the whole, Ukraine weren't the only ones affected by the famine. And the famines do actually happen in regions in that time. I'd love if someone has some good lib sources that can disprove it. Because libs get extreme cognitive dissonance when you tell them that The BBC agrees with us.
Mark Tauger is a nice safe boring mainstream source for the famine stuff
Here’s Mark Tauger’s review of Applebaum’s book on the Holodomor:
https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/169438
Here’s Mark Tauger’s review of Applebaum’s book on the Holodomor:
https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/169438
With the famine, you don't need to prove that it didn't happen, and you don't need to prove that the USSR didn't fuck up, but you can find the stats on who died where and see that Ukraine wasn't specifically targeted, nor was any other ethnicity, which means it wasn't a "genocide" which has a specific definition.
It was a tragedy and one of many failures of the USSR, but those things need to be weighed against the successes of the USSR, and the failures of comparable capitalist states, especially in similar historical contexts.
I get what you're saying. I think what I mean is that there is a difference between active genocide, and famine. It was a failure. The same way that the famine under Mao was a failure, but they weren't genocides.
To actively seek the death of a population, is different to making a costly mistake. So what I mean when I'm talking about this, is that I want a source to bring nuance to the topic. Liberals just think "Mao killed 50 billion people, Tiananmen was a massacre, and The Holodomor was an active genocide" it makes it so that they don't see the nuance in the conversation. Has the USSR made mistakes, and done things I heavily disagree with? Yes. Does this mean that I think the illegal dissolution of the union was acceptable? No.
I'll critique the USSR, China, AES countries all day with fellow socialists, but when talking to liberals, I need to explain to them that they have some misconceptions first, and then we can talk about that after.
Liberals lack nuanced perspectives about a lot of things. They believe in good and evil. "We are good guys, they are bad guys". I can't discuss the failures of the USSR with people who just believe that the USSR was some evil empire. They have to understand the good they did too, and the myths they believe have to be dispelled.
Sorry for making that so long, don't take that to reflect that I have a problem with what you said, just want to make sure my perspective doesn't get misunderstood.
Nope I'm 100% with you comrade, I don't really have anything to add to what you said :fidel-salute-big:
this isnt really targeted at you in particular but one thing ive noticed with how MLs type is that the word "illegal" gets thrown around a lot, like the illegal dissolution of the ussr here or the illegal invasion of iraq or the illegal bombing of vietnam and its not really a way of framing it that i personally find particularly convincing. i think im just not a fan of the premise here thats making a normative claim based off legality.
I understand what you mean, and maybe I should not refer to it as such, but to explain why I specifically refer to the dissolution of the USSR as illegal, is due to the fact that 77.85% of the population of the Soviet Union voted to not dissolve it (Which I'm sure is not news here, just wanted to source just in case, I'm new here and still traumatized by Reddit lol). So while illegal might be the wrong word, I'm just referring to it also being against the will of the people. But this might be a bad way to frame it, I totally see what you mean, and I'll definitely think about what you said here, it does make sense to me.
sure, i understand the context too, don't worry. i certainly agree with what you're saying, and im not trying to be hostile, its just a tiny thing that i dont think should be standard is all.
Didn't take it as hostile at all, don't worry! :fidel-salute-big: Just wanted to explain myself. I mean it when I say that I appreciate your perspective.
:sankara-salute: O7, seeing newcomers to this site is always nice
At the rate things have been going, I expect they just deleted your comment
Yeah seems like they have blocked Lemmygrad, so they probably can't see my comment. Just found out, very sad. But it's fine, now I have a nice general comment I can copy-paste with a few modifications when I get someone saying something like that. And I also hope that some comrades can use the sources. I love the BBC one, since it just straight up is them saying "We were wrong, there was no massacre in the square", like I don't understand how you can deny that one.
The only claim regarding the 1930s famine that you need to combat is the claim that it was a genocide. Historians J.Arch Getty, Mark Tauger, and even the conservative anti-communist Robert Conquest don't believe it to be a genocide.
Here's Mark Tauger's review of Applebaum's book on the Holodomor:
https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/169438
Here's stuff about the way the "holodomor genocide" narrative about the 1930s famine has its roots in holocaust-denial:
https://spme.org/spme-research/analysis/clemens-heni-the-prague-declaration-antisemitism-with-a-democratic-face/7822/
https://jewishcurrents.org/the-double-genocide-theory
All your links here are going on my reading list for the weekend! I know they're not that long, but I just want to make sure that I can take the time to take notes when I'm reading. Appreciate it!
Do we really have to federate with these chauvinists
(As in like beehaw and maybr lemmy.world, lemmygrad is cool)
Do we really have to federate with these chauvinists
No. Lemmygrad is a must, just because the communities would mesh pretty well. Lemmy.ml is a good idea because it's a leftist-friendly common ground where we can dunk on loser libs with an audience. There are probably other small instances that would be neutral to good to federate with.
Also the leftist Mastodon instance https://toots.matapacos.dog/
It was explicitly spun up as a partner to Hexbear. There's a ton of good mastodon instances to federate with - I'm on urbanists.social.
We alright already have a plan for that.
http://shrekland.net
:shrekbear:
Ah, nevermind, its a regular Lemmy post that is showing up on Lemmygrad
Go dunk on them on Lemmy not here :possum:
You can easily make an account on lemmy in a minute, use a throwaway email https://tempm.com/
I really have no opinion, but people are gonna make posts about it anyways, so I figured we could at least contain it here so that those who dont want to see the posts arent bombarded with them.
Requesting
c/brigadesc/cadre, a place to post Lemmy dunksUpbear here https://hexbear.net/post/272671
Got banned from 196 for saying that Cuba was a better place for LGBT+ people than USA and Canada.
They really hate Cuba and the third world liberation movements.
Libs gonna lib.
Sorry guys, we're now klansmen. Never underestimate the ability for liberals to completely lose all attachment to reality. Give them another year and they will be posting on /r/retconned about how they could've sworn Hillary Clinton was elected in 2016.
You know what really irks me about these fucking anti-tankie “leftists”. What is your theory of change without violence as a necessary tool? What ability can any party have to create or maintain a revolution without authority? I can’t even imagine what the answer these smooth brains would produce to these questions. And I do not plan on asking.
The obvious answer is democracy I guess but all you have to do is learn about the history of the PKI in Indonesia to understand that under bourgeoisie dictatorship democratic levers of power will only be allowed to exist in so far as they do not meaningfully challenge capital. Any step past that point without a gun and a militant organization means you are marked for death. Even getting close to the line is probably enough for the knives to come out.
When the fascist culling of internal enemies begins in full force do these supposed communists and leftists really think that “um ackshually mr. jackboot I had a strict anti-tankie moderation policy on the lemmy instance i moderated” will be enough to save them? It may be enough to get them a position as an infiltrator but they have to understand on some level that both sides understand to be wary of ever trusting a spy once they have revealed themselves, not to mention those positions are limited.
That’s really all I see when I look at these fucking pathetic stormfront leftists. A bunch of wanna bee informants, consciously or unconsciously, just preparing themselves for their positions w/ the feds. Absolutely disgusting. The fixation on the term Tankie is incredibly revealing and a sure sign of someone who cannot be trusted IMO.
These past few days have been something else. I am so grateful for the community the mods and the devs have cultivated here. Stalin shouldn’t have stopped in Berlin. Mao was always right about landlords. Che “genociding” the mafia batistianos was cool and good. Bless all your Tankie hearts.
At best they're extremely naïve and historically illiterate. At worst, Vaushite ready-to-be-collaborators like you mentioned, or one step from taking off their mask and joining NAFO.
A bunch of wanna bee informants...
I'm pretty sure this is a typo, but it's quite fitting since it's an apt description of beehaw.
my day is ruined by discovering that there is a lib called Moss. thats what i was gonna call my next account, what a bastard
reposting in full:
Yes, the same people run the r/communism subreddit. I was able to join their discord and participated in a study group on Maoist literature (indeed advocating for the violent overthrow of liberal democratic governments). They must not have liked me, because after the first study group, the simultaneously banned me from the subreddit and the discord server. Basically, the vibe I got was that it was a CCP trained, ESL speaking teacher instructing Americans in the subject of revolutionary communism. There is no way to prove this, but I do assume this was a CCP funded propaganda outlet. What else could it be? - people who take their ML hobbies that seriously?
??
people who take their ML hobbies that seriously?
ITS NOT A HOBBY
It's like these people have never even heard of Dengism :deng-drip:
What else could it be? - people who take their ML hobbies that seriously?
lol, "What else could it be? - the oldest stereotype about MLs and Maoists in existence?"
"Really existing socialism" of course meaning "a system wherein workers have zero effective political power."
Just because it's true that the ML movement was an essential part of decolonialization, and because it isn't true that the USSR was some evil empire, doesn't mean that the ideologies that underpin(ned) those societies aren't deeply flawed.
The USSR was not an evil empire, no, but the political structure of a hierarchical, command-based politic lead exactly where critics said it would lead. The "ultraleft", as you call them, including Luxemburg and Anarchist communists warned Lenin exactly what would go wrong in the USSR, and Lenin did not listen.
That's why Lenin is a counter-revolutionary by deed if not by intent By his actions, the power of the people's and worker's soviets were shattered and replaced with corrupt bureaucracy.
Also, hey, go tell a Tartar, Kalmykk or other displaced ethnic group who were victim of Stalin's genocide that he wasn't a deranged butcher. Maybe if you survive you can tell me what you learned.
https://lemmy.world/comment/171791
From this post
And Lenin warned them that if they didn't adopt a command based politic, their revolution would never get off the ground to even contest with capital. It's almost as if he was absolutely correct too!
But hey, I too love fighting about irrelevant politics of a century ago.
Edit: Also, the workers have infinitely more effective political power in any AES than in their comparable capitalist counter parts. Try telling a Guatamalan leftist that Cuba is bad because their workers have 'no effective power'. It is literally just the lack of imagination that a hierarchy can be used to benefit more than just the very top. Literally just transplanting one-to-one the American political experience to other countries with no extra thought.
"Anti-authoritarians" when someone doesn't align with western ideological hegemony
Also, hey, go tell a Tartar, Kalmykk or other displaced ethnic group
Anyone who was alive to remember the Stalin years is dead! You won't be talking to someone who was displaced, you'll be talking to their fucking grandson who has heard the history of their ancestors through the lens of an ardently anti communist society.
"Go talk to someone from one of those countries" is legitimately the most baby brained argument. It's so easily disprovable that I use it as a barometer for whether someone is actually arguing in good faith.
Edit: Also, yeah, no shit someone who was targeted by a policy that literally every communist agrees was bad would hate Stalin. I have no qualms with that. But what does that have to do with literally anything? Okay, yes, it was bad. Luckily I am far enough removed from the situation to analyze that with the other 40 years Stalin was head of the party and say the good far outweighs the bad.
a system wherein workers have zero effective political power
Why did they suddenly start describing the USA?
I'm such an evil authoritarian that I even want these dumb bastards to have healthcare, a fate I'm sure must be worse than whatever it is they want for me.
You never heard of Wumaos? Just ask them to talk off script they aren’t allowed to. They report their comments to Beijing. It’s like clocking into work for them.
"You never heard of gremlins? Little guys on the airplane wing. They rip the wires out and make the plane crash. It's like clocking into work for them."
Yo what, there are replies in there from exploding heads, isn't that the straight up Nazi instance? Is lemmy.world federated with that?
Exploding heads is indeed the nazi instance. Funnily enough, people in the thread are accusing one of their users for spreading communist propaganda.
Crazy how the fascists always end up being there when people start punching left 🤔
Lemmy.world is federated with almost everything, including exploding heads and something called ”posting lolicon rocks”. I think posting about that caused them to ban me from their meta community, since they're apparently thin skinned about anyone calling them out on their tankie obsession.
Yes. Best part, someone was accusing that exploding heads user of being a commie hahaha
I didn't realize there was a Nazi Lemmy instance, is Lemmy world the only place federating with them? Seems absurd that anyone would openly associate with them.
I need to assume it's just them not doing due diligence researching who to ban
Have them prove they aren't feds by making them say the words that they support Xi and believe his vision is the future, and Stalin did nothing wrong.
I was thinking something more like asking them to denounce the genocidal Kyiv regime.
Remember everybody, ludicrous conspiracy theory bullshit is fine when radlibs do it for the sake of anti-communism and condemning enemies of the state. :alex-supplements:
More projection, the American "defense" budget is flush with cash for entire farms of actual :fedposting::fedposting::fedposting:
Next they're going to go on a 2 day posting boycott to really give those tankies what for.
lol, I think the cowards shadowbanned me from that community or something. Joke's on them though, I can still post there if someone links a post.
Anyone have a lemmygrad link to this, I can't seem to get to it
SWIM needs to develop a browser extension that redirects Lemmy/fediverse links back to your home instance automatically
i decided lemmy wasn't worth using almost immediately
I got banned from raddle for anarcho-tankieism
i hate the name hexbear but that's okay, I'll keep posting my garbage
can someone drop that little blurb about the maoist revolution against landlords real quick? I've got a post to make.
tysm comrade, also thanks for posting Combat Liberalism over there a few days ago, it was nice to re-read it :mao-wave:
https://lemmy.ml/post/1245910?scrollToComments=true
No, that’s not what he implied.
, Putin said he was considering whether “to create on Ukrainian territory a kind of sanitary zone at such a distance from which it would be impossible to get our territory.”
Anyone who has spent more than 2 minutes listening to Putin and his “nuke”-speeches knows that a “sanitary zone” is a euphemism and means “nuclear wasteland”. He threatens to create a radiation zone in Ukraine to prevent them from attacking russia.
:huh:
I guarantee these very same people would clap like seals for the US sending Ukraine depleted uranium rounds though, the nuclear wasteland is cool when the Good Guys do it
Um, technically the radiation from depleted U rounds aren't that bad. What negative effects there are come from chemical toxicity, but I guess Putin doesn't train his shills very well :debatebro-l:
Good news (and by that I mean terrible news), the UK has been supplying Ukraine with depleted uranium since March at least.
Liberals of course cheered about it at the time.
He threatens to create a radiation zone in Ukraine to prevent them from attacking russia.
I'm sure Putin has never heard of ICBMs
The constant “well, software can be forked” handwringing they do like that ends it. Who’s gonna do it? Are YOU?
Typical lib “someone else will fix this” bs
