Libs: "THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO QUESTION THAT THERE'S GENOCIDE IN XINJIANG, AND IF YOU DARE TO BRING UP THE LACK OF EVIDENCE OF ANY SORT OF ABUSE FOR THE PAST 3 YEARS YOU'LL GET BANNED!!!!"
Also libs: "Didn't you know that 15k of the 40k humans murdered in Gaza were actually terrorists? 
Also, lots of civilians die in wars like the one happening in Gaza, it's sad but inevitable"
Fuuuuuuuuuck this shit.
I saw the exact same thing happening on TV. There was a Palestinian member of the french left who was interviewed as a candidate for European elections and I kid you not the interview went like :
- Journalist repeatedly denies that there's a genocide in Gaza, interviewee cites international law and evidence to defend that there's a genocide in Gaza
- Journalist brings up that her party abstained on recognising the "genocide" in Xinjiang. Interviewee cites international law and simply say she's still very concerned yada yada. Journalist repeatedly scolds her about it
If any lib in the wall needed further proof that the west, through their media, is never serious about human rights and only instrumentalises them
The UN are genocide deniers I guess then. Their report says they found no evidence of such.
https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/countries/2022-08-31/22-08-31-final-assesment.pdf
Have you considered that the UN has buckled to Chinese pressure? Just like the WHO and all the other things I don't like?
the UN is almost entirely DEI, all countries should be represented by cishet white usian men
Still spamming that "human rights abuse" button to death they seem to still be persuaded that teaching jobs is torture
Lmao I remember that, the accusations that giving women access to free higher education and vocational training was cultural genocide because now the women would have the financial independence to choose if they wanted to live according to traditional social rules or not
Edit: and the time that giving school kids free school lunches was cultural genocide because Muslims fast during Ramadan - and the western libs revealed they aren’t at all connected to Uyghur culture in which children under 14 usually don’t fast anyway.
It's because westerners don't see Muslims as human, so liberating people from reactionary ideals is seen as destroying the only way they see Muslims as acting (being conservative fundamentalists)
The west reserves the right to pretend to care about liberating Muslim women from reactionary ideals if it can serve as justification for belligerence.
I'm not going to pretend China wasn't heavy handed and that there's stuff to criticise in there but the outcome is way fucking better than the western approach to islamic extremism. No deaths to speak of and the extremism ended completely. Compared to the western approach of incarceration and bombing it works 1000x better.
Thing is, the debate never was about whether the reeducation camps were excessive, it's about genocide. People still believe the unsubstantiated claims of mass sterilisation, people still believe that the Uyghur culture is being destroyed (the other day someone posted a video of the youtube channel Little Chinese Everywhere visiting Xinjiang which clearly shows otherwise)... It's extremely sad how, after 3+ years of no new claims because there isn't even any way to make up evidence anymore, people still believe there's an ongoing genocide
people still believe there's an ongoing genocide.
I don't think they do. Fascists say the wrong things on purpose. They know there's no genocide going on in China. However, they need a narrative to justify sinophobia and anti-communism.
Libs are sealioning to push the modern White Man's Burden. Accusations of genocide, homophobia, misogyny, etc. is always directed at non-white countries who aren't doing what the Imperial Core wants them to do.
If they actually cared about genocide, they would be doing something about the treatment of Native Americans, instead of throwing them in jail and building oil pipelines on what little land they have left. If they cared about homophobia, they'd stamp out the GOP and vote out politicians passing anti-LBTQ+ legislation. If they cared about racism, they'd abolish police and prisons. If they cared about women, they'd make abortion and gender equality constitutional rights.
Since they do not do these things, the only conclusion to be had is they use accusations as a way of deflecting criticism and justifying imperialism.
They know there’s no genocide going on in China. However, they need a narrative to justify sinophobia and anti-communism.
I think a lot of people heard "China is doing a genocide" five years ago, took it as fact, and have simply baked it into their worldview ever since.
Libs and chuds do the same thing with the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Hell, I've heard people spew the "Soviets allied with the Nazis" tripe without even knowing the name of the pact; it's just accepted as common knowledge.
They took it as fact because it justifies American exceptionalism. There's no critical thought around it because it helps spurn the narrative of the US being the world's greatest democracy. If you start thinking other countries have better rights and freedoms than the US, that narrative falls apart.
This same tactic has been used to demonize North Korea and Iraq. Liberals know this, which is why they continue using it against countries like China and Palestine.
Can confirm we just lost several members of our friend-group to the "but chYna" rhetoric. Libs gunna lib.
Nah you dont talk to casual libs enough. They read about a genocide of Uighers and believe it and thats it. Its an incredibly effective psyop. To believe noone actually believes its actually real is silly. Not that long ago i posted something from an anticolonial account posting awareness of all the ongoing genocides on the planet (you can find it in my post history). It wasnt one of the main ones, bit deep in the replies it did mention Xinjiang and the invasion of Ukraine as ongoing genocides too. Well meaning people sincerely believe it because its a psyop that targets well meaning people.
Turned out it wasn't excessive, at least not compared to basically every other possible alternative. It was also completely uncharted territory in the field of terrorism alleviation and prevention and the success is unprecedented.
they seem to still be persuaded that teaching jobs is torture
Elementary school was the worst 15 years of their lives.
I recall the UN high comissioner for human rights who conducted the investigation, Michelle Bachelet, got endless flak for not indicting China.
In my experience they refuse to actually read it and instead link to a Guardian article that wrote some bullshit about the UN not being allowed to see the real stuff instead. Regardless of the fact the UN addresses that they are satisfied with the visit.
Also, lots of civilians die in wars like the one happening in Gaza, it’s sad but inevitable”
But when you tell them Ukraine war is probably the least deadly for civilian* wars in last over century with military to civilian deaths ratio being like 50 to 1 they will get incredibly mad.
*From 2022 when ukronazi army got pushed from most of Donbas, in 2014-feb.2022 majority of victims were civilians in Donbas.
They'll say it's because Ukraine are wholesome 100 Marvel heroes who protect their people while Hamas uses human shielderinos.
Plot twist: Yeah but they are on Russian side
Not to mention Ukrainians using human shields is also confirmed multiple times
Ukraine genociding themselves by sending the few thousand males of child-rearing age they still have to the front without training
I remember some serious discussions (in context of WW1 and War of the Triple Alliance) if doing something like this, especially in a prolonged war with already known consequences should be called genocide of government on their own nation.
It should be. It's quite a brutal "strategy" that just gets people killed.
Didn't Ukraine deliberately draft a lot of people from their eastern oblasts specifically for the reason that they were more expendable and also not-really ukrainians anyway?
Yes. They fucked up though because at the start they send a lot of those units to strongarm Donbas, i have no idea if they just didn't give a shit or sadistic nazi brain got dopamine kick on the thought of using untermensch to opress their own families, but entire units in some cases defected, forming the core of Donbas militias and turning what was supposed to be rollover and demonstration of power into actual civil war.
I mean UN reported around 10000 dead civilians for entire war (edit: since Russian intervention in 2022) last year with military deaths already estimated on at least 250000 and possibly even 500000, it was on the wiki about the war when i last checked (to be fair it was some time ago, but the ratio should hold for the last year or even increase on the side of military since there were some really fierce fights since then)
Ok, I didn't know any numbers about the casualties. Thank you for the context and for the sources, comrade
Remember that a casualty is not a death, but media will conflate the two freely
Average LW interaction
And damn they really did a genocide denial in the same comment they attacked you for supposedly doing the same. Amazing.
I saw an LW thread about China yesterday and everytime somebody said something even mildly positive about China, some smuglord posted "two questions: is the Tiananmen massacre real and are Uyghurs genocided?" and when people discarded the questions as irrelevant, they posted some le epic reddit debate win reply. LW is worse than reddit I swear to god lol
It's worse than reddit because it's full of people desperately trying to recreate the reddit site culture that resulted from the largest traffic souces being US military bases, while using a platform that's clearly overrun with communists
clearly overrun with communists
And made by communists, too!
Yeah, the fact that most of Lemmy is just ex redditors with a chip on their shoulders really shows.
LW is made up of the most adamantly theory-less liberals too ideological to remain on Reddit after the API crisis. If they weren't theory-less libs, they would go to a different instance, but instead they have a cargo-cult recreation of their favorite treat turned rotten.
You can literally go on tiktok right now and see how many zionist war crimes as you can stomach, and yet I can't find a single instance of anything anywhere of Xinjiang. Libs just think what MSM tells them to think.
Either China has the most sophisticated censorship and security apparatus ever made or there's no genocide. Given how photos of the Holocaust, Japan's invasion of its neighbors, the Rwandan Genocide, Bosnia, and the current genocide in Gaza were all available to contemporaries, I'm inclined to think there's nothing going on in China.
Of course, whitoids will say something like "It's literally 1894 over there and everyone is brainwashed and the Chinese are savages and don't take pictures and th--"
We have proof of other genocides because China is the first repressive nation to commit genocide. Every other genocide was done by freedom loving states
Um have you ever considered that's because the CCP owns TikTok?!? Gods you Tankies will believe anything!!They're also cheering on thermite drones being used by Ukraine in Russia
Wish I could load every lib who love
into a giant cannon and fire them directly onto the frontlineRussia would quickly be defeated from the sheer weight of numbers.
Look it's not like they were critical of a bot, now that would be ban worthy there. Weird they're so okay with all the Gaza genocide denial though
If the libs could read they'd be beyond pissed.
But genuinely question, tf are you doing on stormforge 2.0?...
Just leave the server, it's filled with chat bots.
- Show
Show
- BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict
- Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
- Truthout, 2015: The Ukraine Mess That Nuland Made
- The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
- The Guardian, 2017: 'I want to bring up a warrior': Ukraine's far-right children's camp – video
- WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
- Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
- The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
- The Conversation, 2022: Ukraine war follows decades of warnings that NATO expansion into Eastern Europe could provoke Russia
Credit to @davel@lemmygrad.ml
Genuine question, just because there are some nazis in Ukraine, that justifies a military invasion? Should all countries with neo-nazis in them be invaded by others? Should Russia invade itself, as there are neo-nazis also within Russia? Do you think invasion, killing others, is a valid form of affecting change?
If you say yes to any of these, why are some invasions good (Russia->Ukraine) but other invasions are bad (US->wherever)?
What do you say about the 2013 Ukrainian revolution (Euromaidan), which goal was to topple a Russian-controlled corrupt government and give democratic power to the people? Why do you think the toppling of a Russian-controlled corrupt government wouldn't be a much more likely reason for the invasion of Ukraine? Doesn't it make much more sense that if Russia loses autocratic control over Ukraine through a people's revolution, and can't pay a corrupt government anymore to do what they want, they would try to regain that control through violence/annexation?
Nazi is part of the problem.
The Nazi Kiev regime attacked the ethnically Russian Donbass for eight years intending to commit genocide in their quest for an ethnically pure Ukraine and Russia finally came to their aid after it became clear that the Minsk agreements were never going to be honored. Also, NATO was turning Ukraine into a hyper militarized threat to the integrity and security of Russia itself. Refusal of the US and Europe to negotiate on a new inclusive security framework, refusal to stop NATO expansion eastward, and the relentless and violent anti-Russian psychosis that has gripped Ukraine since the Maidan coup that triggered a civil war in a country in which half or more of the population are essentially Russian became intolerable.
https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/1954733
What do you say about the 2013 Ukrainian revolution (Euromaidan), which goal was to topple a Russian-controlled corrupt government and give democratic power to the people? Why do you think the toppling of a Russian-controlled corrupt government wouldn't be a much more likely reason for the invasion of Ukraine? Doesn't it make much more sense that if Russia loses autocratic control over Ukraine through a people's revolution, and can't pay a corrupt government anymore to do what they want, they would try to regain that control through violence/annexation?
Why do you think the government formed from Euromaidan is legitimate when the people living there, Eastern Ukraine don't think so? In your word, they just traded a Russian-controlled corrupt government to a US-controlled corrupt government.
I understand that there are people in Ukraine who are more aligned with Russia than EU. However, in democracies, which is a terrible form of government but still the best one we have, the majority wins. In 2013, the parliament of Ukraine overwhelmingly supported the European-Ukrainian association agreement, which is the democratically elected part of the government, and then the Yanukovich government suddenly decided, no, they're not going to honor this decision. That is clear corruption in Russian direction. I can't deny there might still be corruption in the government formed after Euromaidan, but it is very clear that in total, the majority of Ukraine supported this.
It's kind of telling to me how you ignored the part about an invasion being a fine way to solve this problem. Shouldn't the people within a country solve their internal problems themselves? There was no military invasion by EU/US/NATO into Ukraine to bring it under their control. NATO militarization or membership looked very unlikely... Until the 2014 invasion of Crimea and now the 2022 invasion of the whole of Ukraine.
There is a whole different level between trying to gain influence through trade agreements compared to trying to gain influence by military invasion. Sure, I completely concede that Western governments are trying to get influence over Ukraine. But why do these influence battles have to escalate into a war, don't you agree that no matter who influences/controls a country, normal people's lives are only going to get worse with a war than with peace? The invasions of the US to "help" all kinds of people (obviously not the real motivation) are rightfully condemned, why is this invasion any different? The thought of course is, after the war things should be better, but when had this ever been the case? During WW2, yes, but the problems in Ukraine were nowhere close to ethnic cleansing like was seen in the Nazi regime, in fact it is heavily disputed that there were any coordinated aggression against ethnic Russians at all. Only 3 months passed between Euromaidan and the Russian invasion of Crimea. There wasn't even enough time to properly form a government, nevermind starting a controlled persecution of ethnic Russians (if that even was a plan/possibility, which is highly disputed).
Another thing, why didn't Russia stop with Donbas if it was only about "saving the Russians" in eastern Ukraine? Why did they go for Kiev immediately in 2022? It is quite clear that this current war was never (at least only) about saving "prosecuted Russians".
Another thing, why didn't Russia stop with Donbas if it was only about "saving the Russians" in eastern Ukraine? Why did they go for Kiev immediately in 2022? It is quite clear that this current war was never (at least only) about saving "prosecuted Russians".
They went for the head to make a quick peace negotiation. Not joining NATO is a big one in the deal and stop Azov from shelling Donbas/Donetsk. Peace deal fell apart thanks to Boris Johnson.
Fears of peace talks with Putin rise amid US squabbling
Why do you think Russia invaded, exactly ? they started the whole conflict after decades of making NATO encroachment along their borders a clear red line and being very clear what would happen if it was crossed
The US still kept meddling in Ukraine (and other post-soviet states), with Russia making every effort short of war to try and stop that - like offering loans just as large as the IMF loans for example, except without asking for the batshit insane austerity measures the latter did
Then the CIA backed a far-right coup there in 2014, and much of the following years were spent with NATO financing and training nazi soldiers there in preparation of trying to take back Crimea, while breaking the Minsk agreements in the meantime (I'll pass on the various atrocities and huge reframing of nazi criminals as national heroes in Ukraine there at the same period, since it's barely related, but it is worth a mention too)
Now both Ukrainian and Russian people are dying. A peace deal would stop that.
What do you believe to be the driving factor(s) that led to the current Russo-Ukranian conflict?
My 'hot' take is that your unsubstantiated assertion is contradicted by Putin's history. He was on the anti-communist side in the 90s, he has been against any sort of return to a planned economy throughout his terms, he has been in favour of stuff like monetisation of welfare, etc.
It's extremely silly to assert that he wants to 'bring back his glorious USSR' when his actions directly contradict that.
Haha. So, you expect him to suddenly do a 180 and completely change his policies and selection of allies?
Are you implying that his every action in the past 30 years has been a ruse? By that standard he is actually a Ukrainian nationalist and has been working towards hurtling Russia into a nuclear war to avenge Petliura. What that is contradicted by his actions? Wow you trust a career liar?
You're believing the US media about him, and they're the biggest career liars on earth. Saddam Hussein's People Shredder, anyone?
You people are so lobotomized by Good Guy Bad Guy Marvel slop, it's embarassing
He is a liar. He lied about being a communist so he could infiltrate the KGB and use his position for his own personal gain.
Notice how all the analysis thenother person did was about the actions he's taken and not the things he's said because everybody here not only knows he's a liar but knows that actions speak louder than words.
You're the one confusing words and actions, right from the get go when you said "let's do an expirement" and then made a completely uncontroversial statement.
Liberals are literally incapable of material analysis, they literally just make decisions based on what propoganda was presented to them most recently.
The liberal anti-communist wants to restore worker power and internationalism? The multi-billionaire that only pays lip service to communist aesthetics to maintain support among the older nostalgic generations wants to abdicate power to a system of democratic centralism?
They're so cooked, they conjure new realities that came to them in a dream and believe that dream to itself be reality.
I get paid to do it, so at least some people believe so.
Why didn't you answer my other questions, you're replying to my replies for other people, but not the ones directed at you?
It really doesn't cause a little itch in the back of your head to ignore the dozens of good faith replies you keep getting to make these shitlib reddit comments instead.
Do you legitimately consider yourself to be an honest and serious person?
Putin wanted to be a western lapdog so bad he even asked to join NATO and helped the Americans wage the War on Terror. The West didn't accept that, because they wanted every non-western country to be absolutely subservient and exploitable.
He was KGB in the USSR and wants to bring back his glorious USSR and take back every inch of land that belonged to the USSR
You are a deeply unserious person
I more or less agree with what others here have been telling you.
You are trolling right? Dear god tell me you are a troll. Putin hates Communism, he blamed the war on the USSR giving autonomy to Ukraine in the first place. If you want to say he is a Tsarist that would be dumb but closer to the truth. This is just pure brainrot. Motherfucker was part of what was called the Yeltsin Family, the clique of capitalists selling out the USSR to the west. Why would he destroy the USSR only to weakly try to bring back small portions of its territory decades later?
You have no coherence, you have only knee-jerk responses based on regurgitated ideology
Sorry to spam you with replies but, while it is true that he's an irredentist, the idea that he has loyalty to the actual USSR when he is one of the people who helped kill it is completely ridiculous. He is not a communist and makes no secret of that fact.
Do you have any evidence of Putin wishing to reinstate the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics? Why is Putin moving in a Capitalist direction, rather than Socialist? Why is the conflict specifically centered around regions of Ukraine, not the entirety, and why Ukraine specifically?
Do you believe history to be decided by Great Men, or by Material Conditions?
this couldn't be more embarrassing to witness if you had just publicly shit yourself.
hilarious layers here because Butcher Biden shit himself publicly and said Putin wants to restore the USSR!
He and his party are the liberals who carried out a coup and then formally dissolved the USSR against the wishes of the public, then spent the next twenty years eagerly collaborating with the US, sucking up to the US, and being propped up by the US. Even now he's just a sad old liberal trailing after the American far right and implementing American style reactionary laws in the hopes that they'll finally accept him, even with the ongoing war to keep American nukes from being parked a stone's throw away from Moscow.
Credit where credit is due: at least you deleted this fucking insane comment.
·3 months ago
If you're going to go "no u" I'm going to go PPB.
Sorry, but that Pic has been used on me already. Please pick a different one
I was just about to post that.
To actually answer your experiment: the war in Ukraine is an imperialist war between capitalist Russia and a proxy of the capitalist west (mainly US through NATO influence). Russia is on a scary and dangerous trend towards fascism, and I have loved ones directly suffering the consequences of this.
Edit: not just Russia, to be fair. France, Germany, the US (just to name a few western countries) are clearly on a similar and equally worrying trend. And nobody seems to care when other eastern European countries such as Poland literally ban communist parties (as a good fascist would do), and have people in congress using fire extinguishers against jewish symbols during Hannukah.
Anyone who had a look at Lenin's "Imperialism: highest stage of capitalism" and took it seriously, knew that there would be war in Europe as soon as they realized that the means of production of the former USSR were auctioned in a corrupt fashion, and their structure of ownership went not to western hands, but to national interests that collide with those of the US. Since that moment, it was just a matter of time that there would be conflict.
Wow, materialist analysis of a conflict, instead of simplistic "Putin bad" or "NATO bad"? (both of these statements being true). Now, what do you answer?
You're going at it wrong
You need to add some Marvel references and throw in some hamburger analogies so the drone-like WASPs posting this shit can understand
What I don't understand about Russia is, if they're capitalist then why don't they engage in imperialism? The capitalists there have the same interests as capitalists everywhere. Why weren't they folded into the hegemony they way capitalists of Europe were?
As we all know here, I am very stupid
but I'll give this a shot based on my current understanding.The USSR was not Imperialist, so when it was sliced up and sold to nationalist Capitalists, there were no readily available colonies to exploit, and Western Powers had already divied up the Global South amongst themselves. With little international exploitation, the Russian Bourgeoisie is Nationalist in character, exploiting their internal proletariat. Meanwhile, Western Powers seek the industrial base of Russia, causing constant conflict.
Russia therefore aligns with BRICS after failing to join NATO and take their "share" of Imperialist super-profits. They tried, and were rejected!
I appreciate the response. I need to probably read more about the topic
Same here, hence the preface, but I did feel comfortable enough in said analysis to post my reply.
I think you could also describe Russian foreign policy in the Middle East (namely Syria) as "adventurism." AFAIK they're still occupying parts of Syria with no real exit strategy. While this was done at the request of Syria's government in order to combat ISIS, Putin hasn't let the opportunity pass him by to build oil pipelines and whatnot.
Russia has always been called "the sick old man of Europe" for a reason.
I wouldn't say "Always"
The first popular usage of the phrase was Tsar Nicholas I calling the Ottoman Empire the sick man in the 1800's, and it was ascribed to alot of nations by alot of nations after WWII.
Putin tried really had to be taken into the fold imperialism. He assisted the west in its looting of Russia. He tried to join NATO but the crypto fascists who run NATO will never forgive the Slavic peoples for destroying the third reich. After getting teased and given the run around for decades he slowly wised up to the game. Putin realized by 2014 they wouldn't let him be a European but until late 2023 he still didn't understand that the west could never be trusted.
I dont think the war in ukraine is an inter imperialist war, it is an anticolonial war started by the national bourgeoisie
Losurdo (2017):
The risk of a great war remains as a result of the efforts, on the part of the United States, to stop anti-colonial revolutions, and to construct a new colonial counter-revolution. The US stands opposed China, but we can also consider here the position of Russia. In my books I insist on a point which is perhaps neglected: the history of Russia in general — not just of Soviet Russia, but of Russia in general — is, on the one hand, the history of an imperial and expansionist power, but there is another aspect to this historical reality: Russia has been at risk of becoming a colony for a very long time. We all know about the invasions by Hitler, by Napoleon, by Charles XII, by the Mongols. For example, if we remit ourselves back to the beginning of the 17th century, it was the Polish who exercised power in Moscow. Immediately after World War I — after the defeat of Tsarist Russia — Russia was in danger of being balkanized, of becoming a colony. Here I quote Stalin, who said that the West saw Russia like they saw Central Africa, that they were trying to drag it into war for the sake of Western capitalism and imperialism. [2]
The end of the Cold War, with the West and the United States triumphant, once again put Russia at risk of becoming a colony. Massive privatization was not only a betrayal of the working classes of the Soviet Union and Russia, it was also a betrayal of the Russian nation itself. The West was trying to take over Russia’s massive energy deposits, and the US came very close to acquiring them. Here Yeltsin played the role of “great champion” for the Western colonization effort. Putin is not a communist, that much is clear, but he wants to stop this colonization, and seeks to reassert Russian power over its energy resources.
https://redsails.org/losurdo-and-opera/
Ok, now your turn on the experiment. Is there an ongoing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza? Is there an ongoing genocide against Uyghur in Xinjiang?
The US’s “Uyghur genocide” (“cultural” or otherwise) disinformation campaign has already been debunked several times over.
- The Xinjiang Genocide Allegations Are Unjustified
- The Uyghur Human Rights Project is a product of the National Endowment for Democracy, which is the American government’s main regime change NGO.
- Uyghur genocide allegations
- US-Funded Uyghur Activists Train as Soldiers of Empire
- A Reddit AMA Claiming To Be A Uyghur Quickly Exposes A CIA Asset Slandering China
- The blueprint of regime change operations
We see here for example the evolution of public opinion in regards to China. In 2019, the ‘Uyghur genocide’ was broken by the media (Buzzfeed, of all outlets). In this story, we saw the machine I described up until now move in real time. Suddenly, newspapers, TV, websites were all flooded with stories about the ‘genocide’, all day, every day. People whom we’d never heard of before were brought in as experts — Adrian Zenz, to name just one; a man who does not even speak a word of Chinese.
Organizations were suddenly becoming very active and important. The World Uyghur Congress, a very serious-sounding NGO, is actually an NED Front operating out of Germany […]. From their official website, they declare themselves to be the sole legitimate representative of all Uyghurs — presumably not having asked Uyghurs in Xinjiang what they thought about that.
The WUC also has ties to the Grey Wolves, a fascist paramilitary group in Turkey, through the father of their founder, Isa Yusuf Alptekin.
Documents came out from NGOs to further legitimize the media reporting. This is how a report from the very professional-sounding China Human Rights Defenders (CHRD) came to exist. They claimed ‘up to 1.3 million’ Uyghurs were imprisoned in camps. What they didn’t say was how they got this number: they interviewed a total of 10 people from rural Xinjiang and asked them to estimate how many people might have been taken away. They then extrapolated the guesstimates they got and arrived at the 1.3 million figure.
Sanctions were enacted against China — Xinjiang cotton for example had trouble finding buyers after Western companies were pressured into boycotting it. Instead of helping fight against the purported genocide, this act actually made life more difficult for the people of Xinjiang who depend on this trade for their livelihood (as we all do depend on our skills to make a livelihood).
Any attempt China made to defend itself was met with more suspicion. They invited a UN delegation which was blocked by the US. The delegation eventually made it there, but three years later. The Arab League also visited Xinjiang and actually commended China on their policies — aimed at reducing terrorism through education and social integration, not through bombing like we tend to do in the West.
Show
Credit to @davel@lemmygrad.ml
The World Uyghur Congress also supports
's genocide against Palestine so there's that also
Ok, why yes and yes? Where is the evidence that there's an ongoing genocide in China? Please, as I said in the original post in .world, provide any evidence from 2022 onwards.
First link is paywalled, seems to be an interview talking explicitly about what I'm saying: the concerns for genocide have gone down in the last years, likely due to the lack of evidence of the continuation of the claims that Adrian Zenz made some half decade ago. The interviewee seems to be a member of a US government institution (idk I'm not USian), and since the article is paywalled, i can't see any study or any new information on what's going on in Xinjiang.
Second link is simply a link to a debate? Like, it claims without providing any sources or citing any study, that millions of Uyghur are experiencing atrocities. How's that evidence?
Third link quite clearly says "2021", both on the URL and on the article as you open it.
Can you please, bring any new, sourced information, from 2022 onwards, of the current situation of the "Uyghur genocide" in Xinjiang?
https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/chinese-genocide-of-uyghurs-in-xinjiang-continues
https://thediplomat.com/2024/04/erasing-memories-concealing-evidence-chinas-efforts-to-obscure-the-uyghur-genocide/
https://www.globalr2p.org/countries/china/
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2022/9/14/23351153/china-uyghur-muslim-genocide-xinjiang-united-nations
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/feb/15/china-is-committing-a-genocide-why-was-our-foreign-office-planning-to-meet-one-of-the-perpetrators
None of these should have a paywall except The Guardian which I was able to just "X" out of
Ok, I've read through everything you've sent me, and I gotta say, sorry mate but you haven't read any of this. I'm tired of reading articles with claims of genocide but no material evidence of absolutely anything post-2021. It's obvious to me that you're just googling for whatever articles with the headline you want, from 2022 onwards, to support your preconceived notion. I hope you will analyze your position, feel free to read all the articles you've sent me, and go through whichever sources they provide (when they do). I'll sum up what I've found
First link: reverse image search using "tineye" from the cover picture shows "Adobe stock picture, 2019". No mention of new information after 2021 in the whole article.
Second link: the gist of what it says (I'm not quoting literally) is "the ongoing genocide is when you forget about the genocide that did happen according to us". The article shows the WSJ 2019 article that proved reeducation centers were already closed by then. The only post-2021 claim it sources, is that "Uyghur textbooks have been forbidden". Source: Radio Free Asia, 2017. Feel free to look up what "Radio Free Asia" is if you don't know it.
Third link: quote "More than 100,000 Uyghurs are working under conditions that strongly suggest forced labor." Source: none. This claim is pre-covid as I remember (it mentions the cotton fields), never been substantiated. "In February 2024 the Chinese government further expanded regulations to restrict freedom of religion in the Uyghur Region, including through bolstering local surveillance powers and tightening control over religious education and places of worship." Again, unsourced information, just general claims about "tightening control" without any actual evidence. The same claim could be made, for example, about the Spanish government in Catalonia, and I guess nobody here claims genocide is happening there (I say this because I'm Spanish myself).
Fourth link, and I quote: "And now, finally, the United Nations has published a report. A report that says China’s policies “may constitute international crimes, in particular crimes against humanity.” A report that adds nothing new to what we already knew about the crisis, that neglects to call the crisis what it is — genocide — ". No sources of any abuses post-2021 being used, and it quotes the UN report that clearly doesn't state the word "genocide".
Fifth link: no mention to any events post 2021. Few interviews of unsourced and outdated anecdotal claims.
Sorry, but I'm exhausted after this pointless exercise. I learnt nothing new, because there is nothing new. I hope you did learn something on the other hand: if I deny the Uyghur genocide, is because there's no substantial evidence to support it.
I did learn something. You have a movable goal post. On that note, I'm out. Peace be with you
You're right, I did move my goalpost. On my original comment, I asked for evidence from 2022 onwards. I later moved that back to 2021 for the sake of credibility.
My whole point is: we live in the fucking west (presumably, at least I do). If there were the SLIGHTEST THREAD of evidence to point towards genocide in China after 2021, we'd know EVERY SINGLE DETAIL and more. We'd have been spoonfed with it day and night in private and public media, in internet posts, and in every fucking possible way. If you're struggling to find anything that remotely resembles evidence, it's simply because there isn't such a thing.
Go ahead. Go through the eight links you've sent me (as I did), dissect them, and copy-paste the actual post-2021 evidence that is so obvious to you, so that we all can see it and discuss it
"Uh oh, the shit I linked without reading doesn't say what I hoped it said."
"Uhh moving goalposts! Strawman! No true Scotsman!
How can you be this disingenuous? He asked for current-ish evidence of genocide with a specific cutoff point, then when through the articles you supplied without reading them yourself, and demonstrated that none of the articles have evidence meeting the cut-off point. You can say that the cut-off point is bad, but he has been very clear and consistent in this whole exchange about what he's looking for
Is this the second or the third "I'm out" comment you've posted during your three hours, 60 comment "I'm not mad, you're all mad" tantrum on this thread?
CW: mentions of SA
Just... that first link alone. Jesus Christ.
The Chinese government's family planning program restricts Uyghur and Turkic Muslim reproduction, preventing births in violation of Article 2d of the Genocide Convention. According to Adrian Zenz, between 2015 and 2018, East Turkistan's Uyghur population growth rate fell by 84%. State-sponsored forced inter-racial marriages between Uyghur women and Han Chinese men are part of "family planning" policies, as are female sterilizations, forced abortions, mass rapes, and sexual torture. The CCP forces Uyghur women to live with Han Chinese men in Uyghur homes. The CCP forcibly removes Uyghur children from their homes and places them in residential schools where they are forbidden to speak the Uyghur language, a violation of Genocide Convention Article 2e.
This is what the justification this "Genocide Watch" dot com uses to deem there to be an active genocide. Let's just address these
The writer was too lazy to actually tell you who the fuck Adrian Zenz is. He believes the Abrahamic God came to him in a dream to tell him to "destroy the CCP". I am not joking. He authored a book called Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation. Here's 2 quotes from that book:
-
"Through notions of gender equality...the enemy is undermining God’s unique but different role assignments for men and women"
-
"... anti-discrimination laws put in place throughout the European Union ... forbid employers to discriminate based on gender or sexual orientation. That way, it becomes illegal for churches or Christian organizations to refuse to hire homosexuals into important positions"
Moreover, this guy has not been to China since 2010, doesn't speak Chinese or Uyghur, and is employed by US funded conservative think tank called "The Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation". This unhinged homophobic lunatic is the source for "East Turkistan's Uyghur population GROWTH RATE fell by 84%". This in itself is misleading, since Uyghurs were exempt from the One Child Policy, and their population is GROWING, but the RATE of growth has fallen. As with basically every other demographic in China, as things tend to happen as countries transition from developing to developed. But, this article takes it as fact. This is the due diligence this website has but lets hope it gets better from here. Xinjiang's growth rate fell to 6%, which sounds low but the Chinese national average is 3.8%
Second hyperlink to UHRP, which addresses "forced marriage" then goes on with the quote
- "In an official document issued by the Kashgar City Civil Affairs Bureau and provided to UHRP by scholar Adrian Zenz, there is a line item for 20,000 yuan (US $2,811) for ethnic intermarriage awards (民汉通婚奖励 – minhan tonghun jiangli) for the fiscal year 2018."
It's disguised as a second reputable source, but in fact is actually a second (biased) website that's quoting the aforementioned Adrian Zenz. Whom, once again, has not been in China since 2010. Said article hides in Footnote 5 in the Introduction section this little gem: "We use “coerced” and “forced” interchangeably to describe situations in which a person or persons are subjected to force, duress, or threats by a more powerful person or entity in order to compel the weaker party Uyghur-Han intermarriage has been increasing since 2018 due to state promotion of intermarriage"
So, the local government, in the name of promoting social cohesion and unity at a time of racial tension and unrest, provides a one time stimulus for newlyweds of interracial couples, and parades them on TV, which is taken as government sponsorship (sure, I agree with this classification). But Zenz then spins it to "coercion". Oof, big stretch. Then UHRP replaces it with the word "FORCED", because it's a synonym? And then your genocidewatch.com takes it as "mass rape" because forced marriages would imply mass rape if the evidence wasn't, you know, a one time wedding gift.
Alright, 3rd hyperlink to USF on forced sterilization by Rukiye Turdush. Well, according to her own words, she left China in the 90's, what is her source of information of mass steril-
- "Uyghur women are made to undergo gynecological examinations and forced to take birth control medication, have IUDs inserted, or be sterilized, both in the concentration camps as well as outside the camps. Adrian Zenz’s research on Chinese documents and statistical data8 on birth rates in 2019 reveals that 97 percent of women of child-bearing age in Kashgar and Hotan city in southern East Turkistan could not or would not get pregnant and deliver a child."
It's just Adrian Zenz again. Your 3rd link is a 3rd article written by someone else on a different platform that goes back to Adrian Zenz. And it links to the article where he "mistakes" a comma and a full stop in an official document and subsequently claims 87% of IUDs in China were installed in Xinjiang (the real number is 8.7%).
The 4th link goes to The Diplomat whose first sentence wildly claims 1,000,000 Han Chinese government officials are being sent to live with Uyghur women in Xinjiang. Lets stop for a moment. Disregard the assumption that the CCP just has a million single men willing to uproot their lives and move to Xinjiang on payroll. The total population of Xinjiang is 25,000,000. The Uyghur population is 12,000,000. Let's assume half of them are women, so 6,000,000. This is an absurd action logically, let alone logistically. What is their source on th- oh it links back to the UHRP article that paraphrases Adrian Zenz.
It once again is recycling Adrian Zenz, this time twice removed instead of once. Ok.
And the last link to GJIA, surely this time it'll be different. It's authored by Rushan Abbas, let's do a quick Google- "Abbas worked as a contractor for the U.S. military interpreting interrogations of Uyghur detainees at Guantanamo Bay through 2002." ok, the author is complicit in war crimes at Gitmo. But maybe she has something of value to say, let's read the article itself. Well, the first link there goes to indiatimes.com... to an interview with Rushan Abbas. Whom amongst us hasn't cited ourselves. Lets see what source she has for forcibly removing children. Taiwan News. Oh boy they're sure to be impartial regarding China, let's see wha-
- "International experts, including German China scholar Adrian Zenz, believe the schools are being established to indoctrinate the Uyghur children with pro-CCP views."
It's Zenz again. It's always Zenz. It's just one guy. This is easier than getting to Hitler's page from a random Wikipedia article. Zenz claims there's 500,000 children in detention, Taiwannews reports on it, and a war criminal and former US military employee (but I repeat myself) takes that as scripture and says it's undeniable proof China is committing genocide, and genocidewatch.com takes it as proof.
-
Google search: "literally typing the sentence I want to prove" Copy and Paste every link without reading them
The claims of genocide against Uyghurs originated from
and have been supported by 
since and rejected by most rest of the world. also committed a genocide in Namibia and killed up to as many as 150,000 people over a century ago. The mechanisms and media was also used as a "blueprint" for the Holocaust/Final Solution.Fast forward to the present,
starts wailing at Namibia for establishing closer ties with China and the then-president Habe Geingob very openly accusing of 
, stating that China never belittles or infantilises them. Of course, Namibia (and South Africa) obviously rejects the claims of genocide against Uyghurs. starts yet another extermination campaign against Palestine, with very clear goals of a Final Solution. in response, starts sending hundreds of millions of Euros in aid to . Worth noting that also supports the Uyghur genocide claims with the words "Free Uyghurs" written on the bombs being launched at apartment towers, hospitals, mosques and UN schools.So South Africa finally takes the violent Nazi brat
to court and immediately goes into 
, screaming at South Africa while Namibia tells the 
Olaf SSchwanz to sit down.Meanwhile, China is not starving or bombing the Uyghurs, nor have they been forced into an extermination camp the size of municipal Johannesburg. Life expectancy, literacy rates, incomes, education have all increased. Homes now all have electricity, hot water and working toilets, there's widespread access to primary and higher education, medical treatment and is now united with the rest of China by high-speed rail. Infant mortality and crime has dropped significantly. There has not been a terror attack in nearly a decade and the desperation fueled by poverty is no longer present. Xinjiang is also now a highly important hub for mechanised agriculture and industry. The Belt and Road runs through it and in recent times, large quantities of lithium, oil and other valuable minerals have been found in the province. Uyghur culture is also frequently promoted on Chinese media and tourism both domestic and foreign, has grown. Uyghurs also have Chinese citizenship. China has also finally supported South Africa's case in the ICJ.
Hope that clears it up for you. If not, then
Death to America
Uyghurs also have Chinese citizenship.
Did they not have Chinese citizenship before? That's the only part of your comment I found surprising.
I think they just mean in contrast to Israel's policies on Palestinians in the lands it settles.
They always had Chinese citizenship.
Added that because a common redditor talking point is throwing the "settler-colonization" accusation in the mix
Idk why you libs come here an act so smugly superior when you have nothing of substance to retort are arguments with, you just declare their apparent superiority of your opinions and scold us for not realizing their self-evident correctness.
Seriously they're fucking children.
"Oh yea, well what's your take?"
several paragraphs of analysis with historical context and a focus on concrete actions taken by both sides without relying on political statements
"uhhhhhh nuh uh"
They're just as fucking stupid as chuds except that chuds know they're being stupid on purpose to annoy you, libs are dumber than dogshit while also being a smug asshole and infantilizing you.
I have a give and take relationship with people on the internet.
Yeah "nothing then" is giving to the detailed reply you received
"Respect me while I act like a smug dipshit"
Lol, no. You started acting like a child, and strangers online who know better than you are under no obligation to wipe your stupid ass for you. Read a single book or stop your whining, loser.
Ukraine had no business attacking children in Donbas.
Such a fucking redditor jesus christ. Why even come to Lemmy at that point? Just stay on reddit
You really like to throw "go back to reddit" around a lot. It's getting borderline unoriginal
No one is saying it to be clever; they mean it in a very literal and practical way because they see you as belonging on Reddit.
Life must be hard for these guys who just can't imagine a second reason to say something other than as a performance for updoots
First time I'm saying that to a non-LW user.
You get that alot ig? I can see why.
"If you want capitalist propaganda you can go back to reddit lol"
Fair that it only happened twice, but weird that it happened twice
Because I'm a smartass to people who go out of their way to try and insult me? Yeah... I'm the problem
To be a smartass, one would have to be at least a little bit smart. You don't satisfy that criterion.
Even if did, I'd have to pay my respects to the master
You turn it into an artform,my friend
*they would then go on to post 24 more comments within an hour of declaring they were out
Yes we all do because youre continuously saying stuoid shit that's only clever to people on reddit who post the same 4 comments like a fucking poorly programmed npc.
You really like to throw "go back to reddit" around a lot. It's getting borderline unoriginal
Yeah cuz this is so goddamn original
Let's do an experiment. Russia had no business attacking Ukraine
Little weird to criticize others for unoriginality when you lack it so much yourself
Lol. Guess I can get a little hypocritical myself sometimes. Isn't it weird how that works?
It's not weird at all, you're a liberal, nobody expected you not to be a hypocrite, but we still have contempt for you for it
Bruh had to think of a thought terminating cliche to end on and settled on that.
4 dozen people telling you how fucking stupid you are
"Well, guess we'll just have to agree to disagree shits pants"
LMFAO Liberal Einstein here,doing "experiments"
Also,"the" Ukraine? Madonn!
Changed it for you. And I knew someone was going to go for the bait. Remember, this is an international forum and we need to conduct ourselves appropriately.
Also Einstein was a genius, so it's not much of an insult to get compared to him. Kind of flattered honestly
Also Einstein was a genius
I'm shocked that no one has taken this low-hanging fruit yet: https://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism/
I was thinking of mentioning that,but it will probably fly over their head like a Hezbollah rocket over an Israeli settlement
So just so we're on the same page, what was your point in providing this article?
I just thought an Einstein fan might be interested in reading his thoughts on communism, and Hexbear would be the place where people point it out as a board of communists who have a shortlist of articles that they reflexively post (Ask someone about brainwashing next). It has no bearing on the alleged uyghur genocide stuff.
it's for you to not read, just ilke you won't read https://redsails.org/the-xinjiang-atrocity-propaganda-blitz/
and then keep flapping your ignorant mouth repeating the same embarrassing lies that get broadcast on TV as if we haven't heard them. then we bring up easily verifiable facts and information you've never heard in mass media, and you ignore it because you're a spoiled western chauvinist who just wants the treats to keep flowing
Funny how the mind of the western barbars can't comprehend that this place isn't another internet space dominated by the American monoculture
I'm not the one throwing shit at everyone in the thread in order to make terrible actions by a country look better
Something something rubber and glue. I don't know. This deserves low effort
You are the only one getting shit thrown at you. This isn't a struggle session, it's not a flame war. It's all of us against just you. Because you're wrong and are annoying about it This is the forum equivalent of being brought into town square so people can throw rotten food at you.
Oh sorry. Context is difficult with just text. Let me retry. "Oh no! Sarcasm! My only weakness. I've been defeated!"
If I had to guess I would say all social interaction is your weakness
Oho,I admit,I'm flattered you decided to take time out of your day to look through my posting history to dunk on me
Credit where credit is due
Now,with all due respect,you can fuck off with that smug attitude you westoid fuck
The gall of these smug little reddiors is astounding
Seeing as you saw fit to look through my comments,I think you might have seen that I literally live next to "the" Ukraine
I saw the Russians drone strike cities from my own house and I still think uwu smol bean Ukraine should lose this war on account of the being a puppet of the NATO reich and because they have become a Mecca for nazis of all stripes
I hate NATO,I hate Ukraine and I despise Israel
The fascist world order will collapse and you smarmy little fucks can do nothing about it, except piss yourselves on the internet and epically bait and pwn le evil commies
Yup. I'm smug and you're a hypocrite who is ok with innocent Ukrainian civilians getting killed by an invasion force that has no business being there. Think about that. You want civilians to die for world politics
You want civilians to die for world politics
You say this like "politics" is some nebulous, worthless thing. People typically want wars that are disruptive of the status quo because they view it as the only way to change systems in which, e.g., a much greater number of civilians live under brutal oppression, as their grandparents did and their grandchildren will if the state machinery is not smashed. You're like the people who bemoan the Haitian Revolution because some white families died with no concern for the fact that it was a slave state and the revolution stopped, it cannot be stressed enough, the continuous, literal chattel enslavement of an entire country's worth of people.
THERE were two “Reigns of Terror,” if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the “horrors” of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror—that unspeakably bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves.
-- Mark Twain on France's "Reign of Terror"
The implication that there are premature deaths that are not in some way political is also silly.
Notice I also brought up France, where people were not chattel slaves but living in oppression and fought a revolution that conservatives still have not forgiven them for.
So the question is "What humanitarian issues are you saying would actually get better by Russia invading?" And my answer is that the Euromaidan coup government was culturally repressing the better part of eastern Ukraine, which was the material basis for their revolting against the Ukrainian government, which resulted in an eight year war of the slaughtering of civilians and journalists in the east with indiscriminate bombing and shooting. Russia's victory over Ukraine is the best chance they have to live without cultural repression or slaughter.
Nope. I don't understand why people think that one side needs to be right
It's less about being "right" and more about which side is conducting a settler colonial genocide
Israel. However hamas abducted 251 people and 97 are still unaccounted for. Two wrongs don't make a right
Someone shoots you in the chest and kills your entire immediate family
Show
You try to punch them in response
"Two wrongs don't make a right!"
Add in a pinch of
and a dash of and voilá,you have the average liberal!However hamas abducted 251 people and 97 are still unaccounted for
It's notable that you think that the victims of a genocide should have no bargaining chips to negotiate with.
EDIT: Also,
Two wrongs don't make a right
You are very willing to excuse stuff like the Ukrainian military attacking civilian targets and using civilian facilities to stage military activities. For some reason, it's only non-white people whom you apply these standards to.
No I'm not. Just haven't talked about it yet. You got the numbers because I'm having trouble finding any
No I'm not
If taking hostages is enough for you to condemn a people to a genocide, then what the Ukrainian military does should be enough for you to support their loss, especially considering that the stakes are much lower.
Okay, if you don't support that, and you apply the same standards to the Ukrainian military, surely you support the defeat of the Ukrainian state, as well as a complete dismantlement of NATO and its states, right?
The only mistaken assumption anyone has made here is that you have a coherent worldview or set of politics. We really shouldn't be assuming that.
I have a give and take relationship with people on the internet.
This is toddler logic. You have to use violent tactics to resist genocide, it inherently involves committing "wrongs".
You're right. It's such easy logic that a toddler can understand it. What's your problem?
My problem is the real world is more complicated than a children's book. Toddler logic doesn't work in it.
What actions do you recommend victims of genocide take to overthrow their century-long oppressors?
Then why condemn Hamas, rather than refrain from speaking on the matter at all?
You did, though. You took an anti-Hamas stance, condemning them for October 7th, without providing any analysis of what they should have done otherwise in your opinion.
You could have just as easily said "I am uninformed on the subject and refrain from speaking on it until I am," and that would have been better.
I did. You said Israel was committing genocide, but "2 wrongs don't make a right." The conclusion is, therefore, that a hundred hostages against a genocidal oppressor is equivalent to a century of settler-colonial genocide.
This is nonsense, unless you believe Muslims to be worth less than Israelis.
Saying "neither is right" draws equivalence. Saying "I don't know enough to draw conclusions" does not.
Not really. I observe actions and observe response. Hamas acted by abducting 251 people from different parts of the world due to Palestinian oppression in Gaza, and it's been like that ever since WWII where the allies supported a Jewish state in the Israel region and then pretended like giving uprooted people Gaza was enough even though zionists want and currently are taking all the land to the Med under the claim "It's our holy land. We had it first"
So then take a firm stance supporting Palestinian liberation and dissolution of the Zionist entity. Refuse to say "two wrongs don't make a right" and recognize that oppressed peoples have the right to use violence against their oppressors, especially when all other paths are exhausted and in the face of active genocide.
No. Because this has all devolved into personal attacks, insults, and "gotcha" games
Your initial comment was a gotcha game you disingenuous asshole
Do an experiment, Einstein! Grace us with your genius! I’m sure he would’ve come up with a good reason to tut-tut the prisoners in the Warsaw Ghetto for capturing a few Nazi “civilians.”
Man. I'm really flattered. I keep getting compared to Einstein and it's just making my day
Hmm, weird. This doesn’t sound like an explanation of actions that an oppressed people could take against their oppressors.
Want to try that again?
When all resistance is bad but you appeal to the idea that there's some undiscovered type of resistance that is acceptable, what you are telling the victims here to do is roll over and die until some Great Man discovers that undiscovered type of resistance that liberals don't condemn.
Fighting Israel tooth and nail is the only answer, and the handful of mostly-military captives Hamas took (and Israel fucking slaughtered!) does not mean that there is any moral equivalency ("two wrongs") or that Hamas and its coalition are not the best means Palestinians have to fight Israel.
Context: Gandhi suggested for the people being murdered by the nazis to not fight back
More Palestinians were dead by October 8th, and the number since then has increased by two to three orders of magnitude.
The people abducted were mostly military, and some elderly hostages were released very quickly on account of their age. Hamas takes pretty good care of the, it must be stressed, captives taken in a military conflict, while Israel has mostly been fine with slaughtering them in indiscriminate bombing in classic Hannibal Directive fashion.
This is all ignoring that, outside of children (whose parents are to be blamed), there really aren't civilians on the border with Gaza, as the "civilians" are still part of the enactment of Israel's lebensraum.
Two wrongs don't make a right
Have you considered a much more urgent and pressing matter is that ISISrael has a city-state the size of municipal Johannesburg under siege; has destroyed every mosque, university, hospital, school, UN office, several diplomatic offices, the civil registry, water treatment plant, all farmland, media office, the Court of Justice, cemeteries, most high-rise buildings, effectively banned food and water, etc. At least 50,000 (likely even in the several hundred thousands) have been massacred, with priority targets being UN workers, humanitarian aid, civil rescue/defense, paramedics, professors, doctors and journalists. Several hostages have also been killed. Deaths of Hamas fighters in contrast, have been largely incidental. All of this also recorded live on the free iPhone 15 Pro Max the Nazi soldiers are given.
Hamas was also ready to negotiate the total release of all hostages in exchange for a permanent end to hostilities literally as early as 9 October.
Take a wild guess as to why South Africa for instance, no longer has an active underground resistance.
7 October had maybe, a marginal effect on the already violent Nazi sentiments of ISISrael and it's supporters.
Not at all
Holsum slobber Ukraini Azov nazis ethnically cleansing Russians: They are only defending their country from the eeeevil! invasion of Putler, you tankie! Innocent civilians are dying!
Hamas heroically fighting the Zionazi entity:
Show
you're a hypocrite who is ok with innocent Ukrainian civilians getting killed by an invasion force
You are literally okay with things like your genocide of Palestinians, your atrocities in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Vietnam, Korea, etc., colonialism in general.
And now you're just assuming. You got anything of substance to say or are we just going to keep doing this dance?
And now you're just assuming
Quick question,do you support Hamas?
Nope. I don't understand why people think that one side needs to be rightYou have admitted that you do not support a resistance to a genocide, and you don't understand why resistance to a genocide is just.
But hey, sure, let's hear how much you don't support the rest of the things that I listed, despite uncritically regurgitating your empire's propaganda (even though your empire has admitted to having no evidence to support it).
Show what 'otherwise'?
Is pretty obvious that you just uncritically trust your empire's career liars, and are unable to admit that you support a genocidal empire.
I generally don't in cases like this because you already have your mind made up about me and nearly impossible to convince you otherwise. Your assumption has no basis on my life, but now I know I'm going to live rent free in your head 😁
"im not owned! im not owned!!", i continue to insist as i slowly shrink and transform into a corn cob
If you truly thought that is useless to try to convince us, you wouldn't have tried.
Now, can you refute my claim that you support those things, or not? It would be extremely easy to do, and I would stop considering you a bad faith NATO bootlicker.
does this type of transparent dodge work on the other kids in your middle school
You literally argue like a 13 year old. Calling people Einstein sarcastically isn't new, it goes at least as fat back as 1997 when a talking bird used it that way in star fox 64 and I understood the phrase and what it meant at age 6. By pretending what is clearly sarcasm is a genuine comparison between you and Einstein is patently absurd and you aren't making yourself come off as at all clever, it comes off as a desperate child who knows he's losing and has decided that being obstinate is a replacement for wit, rhetoric or a basic understanding of the topic. You're infantile.
Obomba had no business overthrowing the democratically elected Viktor Yakunovich
- had no business being nazi fucks murdering their own people and working for to provoke Russia
Okay.
That's just objectively wrong tho
They're handling decades worth of unfinished business right now
WHAT ABOUT ISM MUCH???!!!!??!111?!?1;1!?;1!1?1!1!11?1?1?!1!1?1?1?1!1!!1!1!1?1?1??1!1!1!11!?1?1!1?1?1
this post has remained up for well over 24 hours, and you have received an number of good faith responses to your statement and follow up queries - responses which demonstrate more effort and thought than your replies, to be honest.
has your hypothesis been proven?
You’re completely correct.
However, the West had no business provoking a land war in Europe.
Can you agree with that as well?
