- cross-posted to:
- memes@lemmy.ml
- memes@lemmygrad.ml
- cross-posted to:
- memes@lemmy.ml
- memes@lemmygrad.ml
You must log in or # to comment.
"I know that after my death a pile of rubbish will be heaped on my grave, but the wind of History will sooner or later sweep it away without mercy."
-
Y'know, over on Lemmygrad, a lib interloper asked if this was a legitimate quote from the man of steel himself and I had to dig up a Russian-language book (there is no english translation afaik) and to stumble my way through the cyrillic to find the source for this.
Whoops, sorry! Yep I did.
This quote is according to Molotov's recollection. From Сто сорок бесед с Молотовым (140 Conversations with Molotov) by Felix Chuev:
Show
Stalin himself, I remember, said during the war: “I know that after my death, my grave will be piled with rubbish. But the winds of history will ruthlessly dispel it!
Being able to read Cyrillic helps a lot, the text is similar enough to polish that I can fully understand it.
Or, regrettably, a title for a really insufferable shitlib opinion piece.
there's a moment on the journey out of liberalism where you finally read Stalin's words and go, "wait, this is the guy they're saying all that wild shit about?"
https://redsails.org/stalin-and-ludwig/
https://redsails.org/stalin-and-wells/There's a reason they do everything in their power to convince people to avoid reading anything he actually wrote and forming their own opinion.
It's become even more imperative that they try and get people not to do that the longer their propaganda has gone on, because the moment a person does engage with him in a proper academic and mature way is the moment that it becomes clear how much is pure propaganda. This is deeply damaging to liberalism because it sets in light just how much should be questioned, it highlights the scale of it all.
Stalin: You exaggerate. We have no especially high esteem for everything American, but we do respect the efficiency that the Americans display in everything in industry, in technology, in literature and in life. We never forget that the U.S.A. is a capitalist country. But among the Americans there are many people who are mentally and physically healthy who are healthy in their whole approach to work, to the job on hand. That efficiency, that simplicity, strikes a responsive chord in our hearts. Despite the fact that America is a highly developed capitalist country, the habits prevailing in its industry, the practices existing in productive processes, have an element of democracy about them, which cannot be said of the old European capitalist countries, where the haughty spirit of the feudal aristocracy is still alive.
...
That cannot be said of America, which is a country of “free colonists,” without landlords and without aristocrats. Hence the sound and comparatively simple habits in American productive life. Our business executives of working-class origin who have visited America at once noted this trait. They relate, not without a certain agreeable surprise, that on a production job in America it is difficult to distinguish an engineer from a worker by outward appearance. That pleases them, of course.
My immediate reaction to this, is that these statements both seem to become less & less true as the American project continues onwards.
H.G Wells is an OG one true leftist hexbearite:
"It seems to me that I am more to the Left than you, Mr. Stalin; I think the old system is nearer to its end than you think."
Aside from that, Stalin is such a great orator... However, his skill in speaking can't be put only down to an ability to speak plainly and clearly - rather it is the solidness of his theories and robust historical knowledge that makes it easy for him to speak with such authority and precision.
That is why liberal politicians fail so horribly in their seethrough speeches. They are not backed by actual facts or historically materialist theory. By nature of their juxtaposition as defenders of capital AND supposed servants of the people, they can be nothing other than duplicitous.
I wager that there is not a mainstream politician in the U.S or the U.K that could survive even 20 minutes questioning by Stalin without being made to look a bludgeoned fool. Biden would last about 14 seconds before keeling over and dying.
I'm fucking grumpy so if I see any goddamn liberal shit in here I'm using the banhammer don't fuck with me
Liberals in this thread proving this post true, in every cliche lib way possible
It really feels like there’s a point where amerikkkan propaganda destroys history and I think we’ve reached that with Stalin
It's a matter of quantity of people the propaganda reaches.
In terms of quality, socialists repeatedly have success making an impact on this topic on other people. Right now there are people reading some of the comments in this post, particularly the longer comments, and they are genuinely being impacted by some of the things they learn or points made. Often silently.
The main issue is primarily the quantity of people that their propaganda reaches over the quantity of people that socialists can try to educate in a deeper and more meaningful way. I think it's worth looking outside the US though, across Europe most takes are significantly more measured, and across parts of the global south you get views completely untainted by the US propaganda because it doesn't reach them at all. Don't despair.
its true, generally good guy that made great strides for lgbtq folks
Thats one of the things he generally did bad on, but he did massively improve the qol of impoverished queer folks, and improved the qol of queer folks in liberated territories.
saying that someone who recriminalised homosexuality did nothing wrong 'because he improved the general quality of life' sounds suspiciously like queer folk just being the cost of doing business
Yes Stalin was homophobic. He deserves criticism for this. Welcome to most people and countries (especially the Christian ones). I find it incredible that despite the fucking travesty that is the quality of life for queer folk in the USA, especially for black; indigenous; non-white peoples, certain folk have the gall to look back at a man born over 100 years ago, son to a poor family in a nation under the boot of Russian Empire and criticize him for not having perfect values when the common narrative of him as a monster is disrupted. Of course he wasn't perfect, of course he deserves criticism where criticism is due. However, there are a significant set of actions which deserve praise, especially relative to his common depiction.
That being said, it's not as if socialist governments that do well when it comes to queer rights are lauded for their efforts. The DDR made significant strides for the queer community yet is rarely (if ever) applauded in the west for this. Cuba still manages to get attacked on this front despite having the most progressive stance on the matter today. This criticism in this context never feels in good faith, it feels desperate and reaching for a way to conflate socialists and fascists.
Welcome to most people and countries (especially the Christian ones).|
I find it incredible that despite the fucking travesty that is the quality of life for queer folk in the USA
i wasn't comparing stalins policies to other countries, people or the USA, i was commenting on 'stalin did nothing wrong'
certain folk have the gall to look back at a man born over 100 years ago, son to a poor family in a nation under the boot of Russian Empire and criticize him for not having perfect values when the common narrative of him as a monster is disrupted
i wasnt commenting on him not being a monster, i was commenting on 'stalin did nothing wrong'
That being said, it’s not as if socialist governments that do well when it comes to queer rights are lauded for their efforts. The DDR made significant strides for the queer community yet is rarely (if ever) applauded in the west for this. Cuba still manages to get attacked on this front despite having the most progressive stance on the matter today. This criticism in this context never feels in good faith, it feels desperate and reaching for a way to conflate socialists and fascists.
i wasnt commenting on socialists or their policies, i was commenting on 'stalin did nothing wrong'
i didnt figure it was until folks actually defended it seemingly completely genuinely
you can tell because "its true, generally good guy that made great strides for lgbtq folks" is actually also not an extremely serious statement
A whole bunch of people also said that Stalin 100% deserves criticism for failing queer folks.
i saw, im glad
The main reason why people rush to make a genuine defense of him - despite Hexbear’s overwhelming support for LGBTQ+ folks - is because the default stance of the propagandized West is that Stalin is effectively synonymous with Hitler, and undermining that attitude is a crucial element of peeling back over a century of anti-communist propaganda.
i dont think framing him as a purely good person is an effective way to undermine propaganda, especially when i see some hexbears convinced that stalin actually did no wrong, or that his anti LGBTQ policies are just liberal lies
at that point it seems like the memes meant to undermine western propaganda are actually just propagandising folks in a different direction, instead of making them less susceptible to said propaganda
This criticism in this context never feels in good faith, it feels desperate and reaching for a way to conflate socialists and fascists.
never actually accepting criticism of inhumane policies as being done in good faith when its the wrong people being criticised undermines the whole 'critical support' schpiel
i dont think socialists and fascists are totally just the same thing, i dont think leftists are actually all closeted homophobes or even half as likely to be as the right
i think that framing one guy who pushed extreme anti lgbtq policies as having done nothing wrong is unhealthy and disturbing, especially since ive seen several hexbears completely unaware of it his anti LGBTQ policies, or completely convinced that him having said policies was actually just a shitlib lie
Fair, and thanks for this followup. For what its worth, I do think that your critique comes from a genuine place. I also think there is a space for more casual (and opposite the normal) rhetoric without putting an asterisk for each and every flaw. I'm not fully onboard with the "did nothing wrong" stuff, but it's just trying to get a rise out of people and shouldn't be taken as a real argument. Worth interrogating if that is worth it for sure.
i think that framing one guy who pushed extreme anti lgbtq policies as having done nothing wrong is unhealthy and disturbing, especially since ive seen several hexbears completely unaware of it his anti LGBTQ policies, or completely convinced that him having said policies was actually just a shitlib lie
Yeah, I might do an effort post follow up to this megathread that provides some grounded criticism of him if I can find the time.
Edit:
never actually accepting criticism of inhumane policies as being done in good faith when its the wrong people being criticised undermines the whole 'critical support' schpiel
I also just wanted to say I meant specifically when the narrative of stalin being a monster is disrupted (in the megathread, less so the specific comment). I should have been more clear.
Misspoke, my bad. Forgot that this post was a meme thread, was conflating it with something else
That is true, but I still like it as a retort to lib criticism of Stalin that almost always involves something that didn't really happen anyway. As far as Stalin being homophobic, I don't know anything about it, but I do know that he knew that the false scarcity and false precariousness created by his capitalist and feudal enemies is what causes reactionary thought to flourish.
I still like it as a retort to lib criticism of Stalin that almost always involves something that didn’t really happen anyway
I don’t know anything about it,
do you reckon that waving criticisms off as 'almost always involving something that didn't really happen anyway' while not knowing anything about whats being criticised is a winning strategy, or that exclusively learning about the wholesome, sanitary parts of a persons actions, statements, ideals and beliefs is a healthy way to approach historical figures
heres some reading if youre interested, from a source youll probably actually appreciate
They sure do seem obsessed with misattributing that "million deaths is a statistic line" to him though
listen if all those
unbornunconceived potential nazi children wanted grain they should have brought their own spoon
folks if you look below the post topic, but right above the comment box, you'll see
cross-posted to: memes@lemmygrad.ml memes@lemmy.ml
if you click one of them you'll go to the cross-posted post where you have the opportunity to respectfully engage with users whom may not know about the discussions we've had here.
If they hate him, it means he must have the right idea.
TBF liberals hate fascists, just significantly less than they hate communists.
A lot of liberals will actively support fascists if it means beating the evil leftists
nah, they hate the imagery of nazis (high school history and emergence of basic political ability), they don't really know enough of what fascism is to hate it in any other form.
Ukraine comes to mind
they hate us. That hate will lead them to cheer on fascists.Ukraine has shown that liberals will actively cheer on fascists as soon as somebody gives them permission to do so.
Me talking about stalin with other marxists: he did lots of good, did some bad, we should evaluate his actions and make sure to not repeat them, while keeping the actions that enabled numerous successes. *lists multiple fuckups stalin did with the chinese civilwar, tito-stalin split, homosexuality ban, etc)
Me when talking to Liberals about stalin: Stalin is my father and leader
cyberghost waging a ppw against every lib lurker in the lemmyverse
learning Russian to read original sources
MODS HEP
