I swear unanimous appreciation of china was a pretty common sentiment and now I'm consistently seeing upbeared comments about how china isn't and never was a socialist state, and how actually their use of markets is as bad if not worse than america. What's going on? IDK what to think or what side I'm on here but it just seems like opinions fundamentally changed so quickly, it's weird.
As someone who generally likes China, is learning Mandarin and wants to travel/work there in the future, the whole "China good" thing is almost a circlejerk at this point. It stems from attempts to stand up against imperialist anti-China propaganda but it's gotten to a point where some people here almost obessively praise it and defend even it's most glaring flaws.
China isn't "good". It still has huge income equality, it's way behind on many social issues and it's government practices some ridicoulus censorship. In many ways it is better than "Western" countries, but it's still far from good and we shouldn't let our posts be dictated by contrarianism.
It's appropriate and good to defend it against propaganda and to clear up the many lies spread about it, and as a result I understand why people are defensive about it, but still, it's important not to needlessly praise it because it is, in fact, a very flawed country.
This is absolutely the right take.
I used to work in China and I'll never forget one of my coworkers telling me the story of how she got mad at her six year old son for sharing his toys in preschool because it wasn't a "successful" mindset. On the other hand, I got to know some high level government officials who were truly committed socialists. It really is a deeply flawed country and its future is very opaque.
Sorry dude, this seems like a weird stereotype. And 6 year olds aren't in preschool. This seems made up.
This was ten years ago in Shenzhen and it might not have been preschool, it could have been kindergarten, daycare or somewhere else kids play together. I know it sounds insane. It left a deep impression on me.
Of course, this was the most extreme example I encountered and I'm absolutely not saying all Chinese people are like this. However, people here need to realize that before Xi, the CPC did very little to promote leftist ideas following Deng's market reforms. The promotion of unfettered domestic consumption in particular left a portion of Chinese society with no strong political inclinations, ripe for reactionary politics to take root. Since I left China in 2015, it seems like China is going in the right direction, but we can't uncritically support them just because they're anti-imperial. There is a very real possibility that China could devolve into ultranationalism, just look at some of the pro-China twitter accounts.
Yeah, that makes sense - it just seemed like vague anti-China stereotyping and inaccurate details. But your explanation made sense.
Yeah I wonder why censorship is necessary considering that the entire world is planning on holocausting China
My favorite part about these takes is to imagine real life Adam Sandler typing these.
Jack and Jill but instead of being reactionary it’s about the dangers of imperialism
It is not at all. have you seen the state department stance on China? They're weaponizing the world against China through the trans pacific partnership. They want economic and total warfare with China for being a third world country that dared to oppose international whiteness and imperialism. Please stop believing in state department lies about China and please stop emboldening the myths that are spread by the CIA on this site and many other sites.
What lies am I believing? I don't know what the hell your statement department says, I'm not American, I'm doing my own research on the country and asking my actually Chinese language partner about her country's politics.
I am aware that the US wants to rally it's allies against China, but extrapolating that to "the entire world wants to holocaust China" is absolutely bizarre and completely besides the point I was originally making, how in the world is the government banning wikipedia, google and youtube for their own people in any way an appropriate reaction to that?
Yeah banning those media is a good idea. Have you seen the Americans who get sucked into YouTube algorithm. Q comes out the other end. Go on wiki and research anything about China. It’s highly sinophobic.
Because Google, Wikipedia, and Youtube are filled with reactionaries, counterrevolutionaries, and imperialists. These sites push the genocide lie on china, through the Xijing region lie and the famine lie. They acknowledge the war criminals on the island of formosa as an independent state. They're trying to turn the Chinese citizens against the government. They already did that with Hong Kong. Also, the US state department influences your country as well. That entire world thing was hyperbole, and I apologize
If Hitler had never got in the way I guarantee you the rest of the world would have rallied together to crush the USSR in a full on military campaign. What makes you believe they wouldn't do the same to China now that it is clearly the rising power of the 21st century?
In principle I agree, but everyone important has nukes now. 15830347th generation warfare is not fought with "full on military campaigns", when sanctions are so much more effective.
That is so long as nations do not begin to use tactical nukes. Also as I've said in another comment the situation of MAD that we've experienced has been hinged on the fact of Western Supremacy. In retrospect it is very obvious that the Western powers were the aggressors in the cold war which makes sense as the US was the larger super power, but what happens when that is no longer the case? When capital has nothing to loose since China will become the leading super power does it continue to rely on MAD? I would hope so, but something tells me that's not necessarily true.
I think that's true if it is delivered by a nation state in an obvious manner, but let me answer your question with another. If a dirty bomb were to go off in NYC do you think the world would instantly be consumed in hell fire? Do you really think we would just start launching nukes at all our enemies? I don't think so. Using non state actors to set off a dirty bomb would do two things. It would eventually normalize tactical nukes and also establish paramilitaries as a legitimate threat that the US could use as a way to exert influence, but without the hang ups of using obvious military personnel. It's exactly what they already do across the globe right now.
At that point, MAD would be off the table because I doubt any established nation would stop the world from turning for what can easily be blamed on terrorists.
I disagree with a lot of their censorship, but censoring Google, Wikipedia and YouTube is absolutely the right move. Those are all (Wikipedia to a lesser extent, but still not great) hell-sites that have poisoned the minds of millions upon millions of people, why on Earth would they allow that shit in their country??
"People who disagree with me are feds" is blaming shit on Soros agents for leftists.
Maybe the point is not that you're as bad as a Nazi but that difference of opinions on China on a site dedicated to fucking the bunny cop isn't because of feds but because you won't find any community on the internet where there are 10000 users who think the same about anything.
But if the casus belli to start the nukes will be a comment from Garfield_Cumfart69 you can desecrate my corpse.
Not enough, sadly. And the more white people on here criticize POC third world countries, the less allies China will gain.
I really don't. The CIA is on here, that means they're already picking targets.
Because there are still quite a lot of leftists, and I want to make a stand against imperialism here
Reflexes. I use the phrase anti imperialism a lot and my muscle memory is apparently a trot.
You shouldn't support things you aint never gonna be a part of fam, and also nobody is planning on holocausting China, that's completely delusional and is a libidinal ass theory you only want to be true because it's sexier than the boring realities of modern great power competition
That line was hyperbole. But the US is rabid against the people of China
Why would it matter? It's reddit. Most Americans have never heard of reddit, nontheless use it
Most of reddit is le memes, so that doesn't even factor m8. It's a site used by nerds and that's about it most of whom are grillers who don't care
Okay fine. Quote from my brother a “small business owner” in America “I HATE THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY”
You can throw anecdotes at me all day I anecdotally can tell you most people literally don't care
Hahahahaha you’re a goof. Most people don’t care about anything. What a great fucking rebuttal. That doesn’t mean they ain’t sinophobic and hate Chinese people. They do.
they ain’t sinophobic and hate Chinese people
Hate requires energy, energy most people literally do not have. I know you have this libidinal ass desire for the world to be a psychotic and cold place but I promise ye it's way more boring
Racism doesn’t exist people are just banal towards black people in America. That’s why they get thrown in jail at obscene rates. Forced into poverty. And the state steals everything from them.
Black people actually y'know, live here. There's like 4 places in this whole country where Chinese people do. totally different circumstances
:matt: by all means though, keep being libidinal on main. ttly doesnt seem weird or anything :matt:
Yes Chinese people don’t live in America and the government has never been racist towards them and doesn’t currently do so. Shut the fuck up bitch. Keep listening to Cushvlogs ya dweeb
ok. You keep getting mad at randos online, that'll totally usher in socialism some day!
no? we're on chapo.chat my dude. I just aint as terminally online I guess
By your logic, would that mean if you're straight you shouldn't support gay rights because they you'll never be a part of their community? And people who don't have uteruses shouldn't support abortion rights?
what does this mean lol
idk man I'm sleep deprived just dont be a stan and dont let the libidinal desire to see blood soaked conflict and violence in a modern era where such things are impossible between great powers is my point
Oh i see. interesting, i see the pro-china side push back on the anti-china stuff out of the desire to keep things peaceful - ie - anti-imperialism and being concerned about the increase in hate crimes toward asians because of the anti-China sentiment and propaganda.
Perhaps you've seen different pro-china posts than i have though.
out of the desire to keep things peaceful - ie - anti-imperialism and being concerned about the increase in hate crimes toward asians because of the anti-China sentiment and propaganda.
If we were on reddit that'd be understandable, but we aint. We're a small, obscure subreddit-in-exile and you can let your hair down and not take online shit so bloody serious here. I promise, nobody is gonna read "Hey china doesn't allow unions" on here and go curbstomp some little old lady to death. Promise
I'm having trouble relating this to your original point that we shouldn't support China at all. Do you agree with me or are you changing your mind?
people are free to downvote and upbear posts and that's what makes this on the front page. I upbeared the anti-union post because i thought it was a good point and POLITELY asked for sources. No one is saying "don't make anti-china posts" here from what i've seen at all.
You shouldn’t support things you aint never gonna be a part of
The rest of your comment is good, but this is way off base.
I mean "support" in the weeby way this dude is doing. I mean he calls Iran an "arab socialist republic" somewhere around here too he's clearly a very young and misinformed person
You shouldn’t support things you aint never gonna be a part of fam
That's a weird take.
I think a lot of people here would like an Intro to China reading list if some more knowledgeable people want to make one.
The Battle for China’s Past: Mao and the Cultural Revolution
Was Mao Really a Monster?: The Academic Response to Chang and Halliday’s “Mao: The Unknown Story”
I haven't watched it but people on the subreddit were promoting this video series by the PSL and Qiao Collective.
The point about Western China stans undermining the Chinese labor movement is key. If you spend more time on chapo.chat defending Xi Jinping than you do posting about 996 tech workers, or the factory workers who built your phone, or the debt systems that prevail in the Chinese farming industry, take a step back from the keyboard and think for a moment about whose side you're on.
It’s a perversion :zizek-joy:
They are people in the imperial core rejecting the imperial core’s identity and siding with the new satan, China. They don’t even side with the China, Chinese nationalist put out as propaganda, but a redemptive version of the imperial boogeyman.
I need a word for these Chinese weeaboos.
As long as we aren't actively embracing the new cold war on China, I'm fine with debates.
The Chapo Leninists are either bored with it (like me) or too busy having sex to care (also me)
very true,can confirm, we are actually currently having sex
I stopped going on reddit do much because GenZedong got boring. Like yeah I stan China but I don't want to look at nothing but China posting every day
If anyone is interested, a mainland Chinese CPC member appears to have done an AMA on the Communism subreddit a couple months ago to help provide a better understanding about the party: https://www.reddit.com/r/communism/comments/itlyar/xi_jinpings_main_domestic_policies_and_their/
It didn't seem to get much attention at the time. Some interesting points:
Fighting corruption. Xi believes that the party has lost its purity after Reform and Opening up, and a lot of people who don't believe in Communism joined the party and used their power to accumulate wealth for themselves at the expense of the people and the country. He has relentlessly fought corruptions ever since he took office, and has targeted both "the tigers and the flies" ( meaning both high-ranking and low-ranking officials are being targeted ). in 2018, he created a governmental organization " The National Supervision Committee" with the sole task of fighting corruption
On workers' right. Xi has focused mainly on poor workers' right, and has raised minimum wages by many folds. He is however silent on the 996 phenomenon among middle class workers ( programmers, for example)
On Medicare. China has a universal healthcare system, but previously a lot of workers and farmers don't have access to it. ( it was complicated to register for it). Xi in term simplified the procedure. He also kept the prices of going to hospital pretty low ( you can easily afford it even if you are poor as long as you don't have very major conditions.)
Question: How would you define China's economic model? Socialism with Chinese Characteristic, plain Socialism, State Capitalism, or another term? And why do you think there's such vociferous deliberation among Western leftists on the topic?
Answer: China is a Socialist Market Economy. The party won't plan for everything, and would allow the market to adjust itself. But the party will have the leadership on everything, and if the market's adjustment is inadequate, the party will step in. The biggest difference between China's model and State Capitalism is that our model's greatest pursuit is not profit or wealth, and doesn't serve the interest of oligarchs and capitalists. Rather, the socialist market economy is used to advance the living standard of the people and develop productivity.
Question: How and why is China a dictatorship of the proletariat? Some people here in Brazil say that the bourgeoisie actually controls the Party and China's no longer a DotP.
Answer: Basically, a bourgeoisie government transfers wealth from the poor to the rich, and the rich can exert meaningful power in the government to keep that process going. China usually took wealth away from the rich and transfer it to the poor, and the rich has no power to stop it. Wang Jianlin, for example, was once China's richest man, and he has to participate in the government-mandated poverty alleviation effort. He once said in public that his money is "his" money, not the government's, and started to transfer his assets abroad, and the banks ( which are all state owned) basically refused to give him anymore loans, and the government also refuses to exchange his RMB to dollar, so he can't transfer any more assets abroad. Now he is in a tough situation.
Question: What percentage of the party are Capitalist roaders just pretending to be socialists?
Answer: I'd say about 20%, most of them are either rich people invited to join the party back in the days of Reform and Opening up, or are corrupt officials who only joined the party for money and prestige. The situation has gotten better since Xi, 10 years ago I'd put the number at at least 50%.
Question: What level of influence do owners of large businesses and corporations have in China? Have they meaningfully infiltrated the government?
Answer: They haven't. Even the owners of the largest enterprises still have to follow the party's rule. If, for example, the party tries to remove Ma Huateng from the post of CEO of Tencent, Ma is going to get removed and another CEO who understands the redline better will be nominated by the board.
Question: This is incredibly worrisome to me. I feel like a simple solution would be to have caps on the wealth of party members and their families. I'm glad the situation has gotten better under Xi but I'm curious why there isn't a ban against rich people being in positions of power in the party. How do you ensure a dictatorship of the proletariat in the long term if the bourgeoisie have real power from within the party? I guess it's another form of class struggle but not just in society but for the soul of the party?
Answer: Xi is trying to get rid of corrupt officials with his anti-corruption campaign. These corrupt officials usually have their wealth hidden, and on the surface, they are just as clean as a normal party members. As for those rich people who are invited to join the party, they have no real power whatsoever, and they won't be able to hold any offices in the government or any leadership position in the party. Their party only give them memberships to show to the people that entrepreneurs are also being united under the umbrella of the party.
Question: This is really good news my only concern relates back to question 2. In that if they are allowed to join and influence the party then they don't have to go against the party they can just try to influence the party directly from within. What percentage of the upper leadership in the CPC is rich?
Answer: If you define upper leadership in the CCP as provincial/ministerial level and national level, then I'd say that about 10% of the provincial officials are at least corrupt to some degrees, and I'd say very few of the national leaders are corrupt.
Question: I’ve heard the use of vpns have become quite popular in order to bypass the strict content regulations. Do you think this is a good thing? I mean being restricted to government approved content must be quite annoying and limiting to everyone’s person political beliefs. But hey not my problem.
Answer: I think it is generally a good thing. A VPN is not very expensive and anyone who can afford the Internet can afford a VPN. Most Chinese people who used the VPN to access the outer world, however, came back to the Chinese Internet complaining about the toxicity and disinformation that exists outside of the wall, particularly in the political sphere.
Question: What's the general consensus on Islamic extremism in the Xinjiang region, specifically pertaining to Xi Jinping's response? Too extreme, too lenient, adequate, or something else entirely? There is no consensus on that topic, since we do not talk about it often ( or at all ), but the official explanation is that extremism, separatism and terrorism has taken over the region and has invaded people's mind in that region. And to return Xinjiang back into peace and prosperity, a deep and throughout cleaning is necessary.
Answer: Unlike what is portrayed by the West, we do not massacre at the so-called "concentration camps" ( why would we? ), instead we teach ideological classes their to eliminate the three isms in their minds and teach basic skills to them so that once they return to the society, they can make a living for themselves. Also, the number is quite exaggerated, bu at least 10 folds, as reported by the West.
Question: What would you recommend as goes literature? The r/communism mods put together their reading list for Marxism-Leninism, are there things the Chinese Communist Party believes necessary for a modern Marxist-Leninist? Things you recommend, personally?
Answer: The Selected Work of Mao" is a must. Other than that, most of what the party suggests us to read is specific to China, and I don't think is applicable to the situation in the West.
TBH I think it's less about what most users think and more about what most users think they can post here without being made to feel like shit about.
The reward of spreading our (objectively correct ofc) views on C H Y N A to a few extremely online commies, is to most of us for most of the time, not worth spending hours of our life arguing on the internet or the negative emotional impact of having a community we kind of care about dunk on us about.
So a few uncontested dunks/public shamings can quickly shift, if not people's opinions then the opinions that they're willing to express.
Yesterday someone got genuinely and publically upset about being dunked on for saying china bad so now some china good posters took a break and some china bad posters were emboldended. I think a very small portion of posters actually care enough to risk posting about controversial topics so discouraging/encouraging a few of them can have wildly disproportionate impacts on the dialogue on this website.
Give it a month or so and it might swing back the other way.
Pretty much this.
The site as a whole isn’t like GenZDong. It’s got a few people who care, and a whole lot of people who are just happy to read the arguments.
The opinions of this site and the old Chapo sub have substantial variance on views relating to China.
Most people support China geopolitically and view their international related actions as very important to building a multipolar world that could eventually allow more countries to take a more independent path, but it's some baby brained shit to act like you'd want every western country to become just like China because that's what the ideal version of socialism is.
Also like, Xi is better than the previous 2 chinese leaders who might as well just have been western capitalists with just deeper control than liberal democracy currently allows.
I don't recall seeing many China good posts on r/CTH, this place feels more like a carry over of r/moretankiechapo (which is good).
We can all agree that China (Chinese: 中国; pinyin: Zhōngguó), officially the People's Republic of China (PRC; Chinese: 中华人民共和国; pinyin: Zhōnghuá Rénmín Gònghéguó), is a country in East Asia. It is the world's most populous country, with a population of around 1.4 billion in 2019. Covering approximately 9.6 million square kilometers, it is the world's third or fourth-largest country by area.
let’s not be too hasty here, the methods used for quantifying land area are subject to many discrepancies based on how accurate the measurements are. Struggle session on geography inbound?
Coastlines are infinite and those "square kilometers" are empty CMV
not to mention the Republic of China (ROC) (traditional Chinese: 臺灣/台灣; simplified Chinese: 台湾; pinyin: Táiwān), inofficially Taiwan, which is a country in East Asia. Neighbouring countries include Japan to the northeast, and the Philippines to the south. ROC is a member of the World Trade Organization, Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation and Asian Development Bank under various names. The official name of the country is the "Republic of China"; it has also been known under various names throughout its existence. Shortly after the ROC's establishment in 1912, while it was still located on the Chinese mainland, the government used the short form "China" (Zhōngguó (中國)) to refer to itself, which derives from zhōng ("central" or "middle") and guó ("state, nation-state"), a term which also developed under the Zhou dynasty in reference to its royal demesne, and the name was then applied to the area around Luoyi (present-day Luoyang) during the Eastern Zhou and then to China's Central Plain before being used as an occasional synonym for the state during the Qing era.
Once it's become clear that there's no tolerance for the kind of "chinabad" drivel you see on Reddit and other platforms, it becomes possible to have a reasonable and fact based discussion.
Edit: which obviously includes pointing out the myriad of lies Western media tells about non-Western countries
I dunno, I think there are a lot that like China, a lot that don't.
I'm ambivalent about China at the moment. I don't know enough about it to form a real opinion.
I do enjoy how much it embarrasses the west though, lol. :sicko-yes:
I really should have an opinion though. I should be less lazy and actually learn shit.
We are a pretty diverse bunch here. Mostly ML it seems, so lots of critical support for the PRC, but there's still a wide range of opinion on the matter.
Which I think is cool and good.
#natureishealing or some bull shit.
That's cool. I'm glad it's working. No joke, the original sub was an important gateway to leftist ideas for me, and now I'm radicalizing my friends and family. I sure hope this place can serve a similar purpose for others.
bitch i saw +2 on my bit and went away and i come back to it being dumped on hellloo
Oh yeah, 100%. I try to analyze things through a nuanced lens. In this case I just noticed popular opinion, or at least popular expressed opinion, seemed to have shifted recently. Personally I'm of the opinion that we should support real world applications of socialism, and regardless of whether or not china is truly socialist, support their stand against western imperialism, while also noticing and criticizing their faults. Additionally I will never not defend china to libs who come at me with blatant sinophobia, but that kind of non-nuanced discussion doesn't often happen on this site, only everywhere else.
The fact that so many twisted themselves into knots justifying Biden as the lesser of two evils but are not willing to do the same for China is disgusting.
The venn diagram of Chapos ridin' with biden' and those that denigrate China is a circle
There was hardly anybody here vibin with Biden as far as I can tell. Saying a market economy isn't a socialist economy is fine. Saying China is socialist because socialism is a movement to overturn current relations and replace them and China is (very very slowly) moving in that direction is also fine. Sinophobia and Redscare should be hated by everyone here. Also China is putting out some cringeworthy propaganda itself and there is nothing wrong with calling that out.
There was hardly anybody here vibin with Biden as far as I can tell.
Always amazing how after an election where a lib is elected or after a war is already underway you can't find anyone that supported that lib and the electoral process or anyone who supported the war
I remember loads of chapos lesser eviling Biden
China is putting out some cringeworthy propaganda
Show it coward. China only puts out based propaganda
I swear I was the first person to make this point. I wanna take credit.
What's going on?
:cia: and :capitalist: have finally found our little hide out.
Not sure if you're being ironic or not but this thought has crossed my mind too. The sudden sea-shift in opinion seems just a little too timely and coordinated.
Not suggesting that everyone being negative is in on it, but personally I'm suspicious.
