Permanently Deleted
I've built up a tolerance to the China struggle sessions, that's weak lib shit now. I need newer, stronger forms of sectarianism to make me feel alive.
am also trans and i fucking hate it that we have to poison even the internet with gender. we already have it in every single human interaction irl why can't the web remain anonymous?
Absolutely, situations like yours are getting lost in the overall discussion here. There are legitimate reasons for some users to not want to identify with any pronoun. Much love to you :heart-sickle:
A comrade who is questioning or unsure of their identity doesn't have to do anything for you or I or anyone else. Your comments toward Senora sound much more like bullying than solidarity, the latter of which is the entire point of pronoun tags in the first place.
Yeah I find it weird to be so adamant about making everyone define their pronouns and gender. I know several trans/NB people who enjoy the anonymity of forums like this that allow them to forget about gender, pronouns and everything else that surrounds it. I thought part of the purpose of this forum was not to be like twitter or facebook where your account does not stay with you and doesn't have any bearing on who you are outside of political views.
I'm a cis guy who set my pronouns day one. It's a good sign of solidarity and this site is cool for doing it. But the way this has been handled is a complete and utter shitshow. Ironically, "not setting your pronouns is transphobic" is a really binary way of looking at the situation. By setting up such a hardline stance, the users became hardline as well. I've seen a lot of really cruel posting from people who I would consider to be my comrades. I think we all need to chill out a little, including myself. This feels uncharacteristic for this site and these hard lines in the sand do not help our cause.
Your username would imply your pronouns. For everyone that isn't the case.
I don’t think none was an option before the original post that set this off, so people were being shamed and called transphobic for not choosing when there were inadequate options.
Did you reply to the wrong person? I haven’t called anyone transphobic.
Wasn't comrade originally popularized and intended to be a class and gender neutral form of address? How is it a "joke" smh
if you say so.
It seems weird to me that when asking for a means of referring to a person comrade is considered bad faith in that regard...
dunno about the comrade thing but doe/deer is the neopronouns used by one of our comrades on here, and should be treated with respect o7
edit: why downvote this comment, one which conveys only information and solidarity for a comrade? Wtf y'all
call me transphobic or a boomer or whatever but I dont really see myself referring to anyone as a deer regardless of their want. I imagine I would more likely just not refer to them at all.
that is...transphobic to misgender someone because you don't see their neo-pronoun as valid. they/them is a neopronoun in the scope of things. at one point in english she/her was a neopronoun. you cant just be the arbiter of pronouns.
I'm going to jump off a bridge. We are never going to achieve liberation, the imperial core will forever be self-obsessed people that care about personal validation over people's liberation and we will be talking about fucking deer pronouns until the last drop of potable water evaporates or the last two "leftists" burn to death from climate disaster.
My problem is this is the western left. This is what we are. If we continue this way we will be rounded up and fucking shot and the immense suffering in the world will chug along until the last sucker gasps their last breath of air. This is an exercise in privilege that would make any self-respecting global south Communist execute every one of us on sight, myself included.
I mean it's not far off. There is a reason that regular people from marginalized communities roll their eyes at us. I can't fathom the reaction that any of the poor black folks or immigrants I work with on the regular seeing this shit. If people want to talk about alienating potential comrades, I think that's the direction I'd take the conversation.
So trans people aren’t capable of being poor, black, immigrants or marginalized, then?
There is no need for you to intentionally misrepresent his position like that.
Calling Chapotistas the "western left" is perhaps too high a praise. What percentage of people here actually organize or act on their ideology?
No one using this website will be rounded up and shot because no one on this website is of political or economic importance. The most obvious leftward party in the United States is... the DSA. What does that tell you?
Why do neopronouns come before Imperialism and Capitalism? Is Imperialism not the primary contradiction in the world rn? I'm sorry but I'm a Marxist, my understanding of the world and the struggles we face is informed by dialectics. The order of priorities has been accepted for decades by Marxists that actually fight for liberation. If we have to wait for everyone to be comfortable using deer pronouns before we achieve liberation for the exploited masses we might as well kill ourselves now because it's never going to happen.
Gatekeeping the left over shit like neopronouns is the biggest gift to reactionaries we could give them.
The vast majority of people are not ever going to be comfortable with deer pronouns and that's just a fact. What you're saying is that we must box these people out until they're sufficiently compliant with radical social values held by a fraction of a fraction of a percent of people in the world.
Like I don't care. I will call you a deer if it makes you happy. But I'm not everyone, and the struggles for Liberation needs mass support. Not just locally or domestically but globally. People are saying "if you don't use neopronouns you're not a leftist" and all I can think is "would a devout muslim refugee whose family was slaughtered by US-funded wahhabists be comfortable using neopronouns, and would we box them out of the struggle of they weren't"
It wouldn’t affect them at all, so they’d probably do the decent thing and call people by their pronouns.
Okay, I appreciate you giving them the benefit of the doubt, but come on.
Let me reframe this for you.
You're a very religious young man, fighting age. You have followed the Quran and the hadiths to the best of your ability. You safeguarded your sister's chastity from leering goatherders all her life. And then: your family has been killed by western interventionism. You have no support system.
You find yourself in a refugee camp, and a few white people gathered are talking about socialism and defying the west. You listen closely.
You realize that they are referring to each other as deer. At first you assume this is some kind of code, but then you notice that they insist everyone call them deer.
Baffled and disappointed, you lie down on your cot. You listen for the buzz of a drone overhead, and fall asleep because you don't care anymore.
Your version is accurate, yes, but it doesn't address the point: are highly religious people from unindustrialized areas of the Middle East going to readily accept people that want to be referred to--not, from their perspective, as a man or woman, but as a cervid?
The answer is no. So the next question is: you have people who can be radicalized leftward or rightward due to the precariousness of their position. Do you turn them away because they do not follow our norms?
Look, if during the American Civil War we got rid of every single Union soldier who wasn't on the cutting edge of progressive abolitionist and feminist thought, the north would've lost. The fact of the matter is that you're going to have to include a lot of people who are at different stages of moving towards that intersectional egalitarian thinking.
They probably won't become a fascist but they might get discouraged and alienated by a bunch of online Westerners dogpiling them for something that seems trivial to them.
I mean, maybe they would, but I'm not sure you've spent a lot of time with people from the global south if you think that's even the more likely scenario let alone the probable one. Most immigrants I've known, and I've known a lot working on construction sites and in retail in high-diversity areas, are pretty socially conservative and religious. Religious values aren't any less important to them than they are to our domestic fundamentalists.
Idk what kind of bubble your girlfriend lives in but the Communist movement in Africa as a whole is objectively socially conservative compared to the West. Most Communist parties still hold the line that lgbt identity is degeneracy born out of capitalist alienation. I think they're wrong because scientific understanding of these issues points to that theory being a false assumption. I'm not going to tell them to go fuck themselves because of that though. Their struggle is still deserving of my support and collaboration.
Sure, a lot of people are bigoted, but the bigots are generally also very right-wing and wouldn’t be interested in joining our cause anyway.
Writing off someone immediately like this is an obstacle to mass movements. Some people just need a little push. Some, a bigger push.
STFU. Are you stupid on purpose? TALKING ABOUT PRONOUNS is not what is stopping "liberation". You are creating the problem by not using people's pronouns- you literally admit to not seeing yourself using people's pronouns. JUST USE PEOPLES PRONOUNS. you don't need to understand neo-pronouns to respect them. and FYI not being misgendered isnt about "personal validation" it is a serious and harmful action to misgender someone.
I don't misgender people, but you're wrong, it is about personal validation. Like you're literally validating someone's personal gender identity by calling them correct pronouns. Misgendering someone is about as serious and harmful as calling someone a fat fuck, it's mean and can probably do real emotional damage, but it's not the same as cops executing black men for reaching in their pocket or the military drone striking a hospital.
Please just log off and reflect or something. Something does not need to kill you to be important. Not having your correct pronoun used may not bomb or shoot you but it does serious mental harm- being invalidated isolates you and harms you. Affirmation at no cost to you is harmless. Why would it be harmful for you to just use pronouns as people indicate they want you to. Even if you don't get it.
First of all, I literally started that comment with "I don't misgender people" so idk why people keep saying "just use the pronouns". I do.
Second, my problem is that western leftists care way more about the "serious mental harm" of people in the global north over the absolute physical slaughter of people in the global south, or even people in marginalized communities in the global north. The social gatekeeping is an exercise in extreme privilege that is severely fucking grim.
You can't compare two distinct issues like this by doing a well what about this also serious issue. No one here disagrees western leftists should help the global south. Why can you also not work on your own biases? You really seem to be disregarding the identities of people as unserious and a waste of time.
I don't need to work on personal biases lol. I'm not a transphobe. I don't think they're invalid, I don't believe in biological essentialism, I respect people's pronouns and I stand up for trans people when they're disrespected. I have been for a while, starting with 10 years ago when I made a scene at a diner after they kicked out a trans woman for using the women's room. People keep trying to read transphobia out of a genuine concern for the navel-gazing of the western left.
And I'm sorry, but people's identities being validated is objectively less important than people's physical bodies being protected. That doesn't mean you can't care about both, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that there is a social gatekeeping where you create teams where "if you abide by all these social rules you can be on our side, otherwise fuck you". We will spend endless days talking about pronouns but people get bored talking about things that are 100% essential for any liberators movement to address.
It isn't navel-gazing to have a discourse on gender, or neo-pronouns, or mandatory vs recommended vs available pronoun use. It's actually important work that helps us build an inclusive community. If you are free from bias then just step aside if you don't want to get involved in it. Why come on to de-rail the discussion by making the point that there are in your opinion more important things to talk about. Go work on protecting people's physical bodies instead of complaining that people are interested in validation of people's identities- which btw is also a preventative measure of allyship. Any liberation movement must have space for social rules to at least protect people from being done harm. This is essential- so don't smear it by complaining about "deer pronouns" which if you are capable of respecting you should just do and stop there.
I think you responded to the wrong person, this isn't the person who said they don't see themselves using people's pronouns
Sorry!! My bad I meant to @Bread_In_Baltimore who had that shit take. Literally typed too fast.
You did, its just that Bread and Lad are two different posters and I think you merged their shit takes into one super shit take
unless my boy whom I love @Bread_In_Baltimore also said he cant see himself using people's pronouns.
say it ain't so
It's both of them lmao. Scroll up they are competing for most stupid in the world. Lad commented- I responded- Bread responded to my comment with more whining.
I mean, not really. Literally earlier today I failed to manage the same. I got pissed off and made a post on main about this pronoun stuff and the title was not respectful.
we all can't manage sometimes. What matters is that we pay attention to ourselves and our actions, and be open to failure and fucking up, and learning the lessons you need to grow.
Because if you don't self-crit (or at least listen to your comrades criticisms) you end up saying transphobic shit on chapo.chat, I guess
Mhmm- I'm mostly talking about people (and you can find quite a few examples) who are 10 comments into defending their choice to actively disrespect people. No one is perfect- some people are going out of their way rn to be stupid tho.
I'm sorry, I'm fighting for my friend here and she for her comrade. Pardon me if I don't appreciate shitheads like this lad who invalidate deer.
OK, sure. Let's say I give you this one. Can you give me an example how I would use doe/deer as a pronoun to refer to a person.
Deer pronouns are doe/deer, and doe has used them for a long time.
It's pretty simple in this case for the most part, doe/deer can be largely used as she/her would. If you'd otherwise say she say doe, if you'd say her use deer.
I genuinely dont mean this in any offensive way, but I had no idea what your first sentence was even supposed to mean until I realized you were talking about a person after 3 or 4 re-reads and I was literally the person to ask you for an example.
It kind of defeats the purpose of a pronoun if nobody realizes it is even referring to a person when it is used. I am arguing from a point of practicality whereas your opinion is very clearly emotionally charged considering this is your friends preferred pronouns which is understandable.
I feel that this specific discussion has only minor relevance to transgenderism overall, and is a bit more complex than that.
I genuinely dont mean this in any offensive way, but I had no idea what your first sentence was even supposed to mean
You're new to this concept and having some trouble getting your head around it, that's how it goes. It's kind of hard to conceptualize at first, it was for me. But that's no excuse for refusing to try
How does it defeat the purpose when deer pronouns are going to be on deer posts? It will make it easier, obviously there's gonna be some confusion but what's wrong with that? It's just an adjustment period.
Not to mention how valuable that getting normalized could be for people.
imagine if you were a comrade lurking here who goes by a neopronoun sees how much trouble it caused with the majority cishet population, how it might not be worth it to be able to be comfortable and expressive of themself in an online space for expressing oneself among comrades lest they have to see garbage posts like your complaining about a part of who they are.
Cause guess what that's not hypothetical, that's what you've done here
Do you see how your attitude is the one that's defeating the purpose here?
No one's asking you to get a neopronoun, no ones asking you to think they're cool, just respect it when a human being shares how they prefer being reffered to
Why is it somehow your job to decide the line here?
You say minor, I say small % of the population, but the thing is that does not reduce the significance of showing the bare minimum solidarity wtf.
While its a small subset of the community, who's to say how many more would be more comfortable with a neopronoun if it were a widespread concept.
The same problem would occur there, because they could just type it in themselves after seeing it same as go select it from a dropdown
how about we just bully people who do shitty things like use our comrades' pronouns as jokes?
I think it's poor form to assume bad intent of users who choose not to specify. Obviously when bad intent is demonstrated it cannot be tolerated. I don't know if the aggressive demands all over the front page are a response to a sudden influx of bad people or if it's preemptive.
couple months
This site has existed for 2 months and this happens almost daily
especially when the default setting is blank flair. The way it is, there will necessarily be unflaired users. What if an unflaired person misses the struggle session today and logs in tomorrow?
Awful, shitty struggle session. this is a super nice and supportive place and the vitriol today is bizarre.
Agreed, the influx of users has brought a little negativity recently. It happens though, we all have to be patient with each other a little more. Now more than ever.
but this tone of "change them now or you are the enemy" is extremely not the general vibe around here.
You'd think, and yet it's the fucking admins posting this shit then pinning it to main.
@Beatnik, put some standards in place about "moderators" harassing the site with meaningless vitriol like this.
Thank you, you have described the situation perfectly, much better than I could have.
Whenever these struggle sessions emerge I just like to imagine showing a freedom fighter in Yemen the amazing progress the revolutionary left is making in the imperial core as our government decimates their people.
I get your point, and I agree that the continuing discussion around the issue is unproductive in a terminally-online way.
In the same vein, it's entirely possible to care about more than one thing at a time.
I mean how often do we have discussions this deep and involved about US Imperialism? The closest we come is china struggle sessions and honestly China is fine with or without us. Let's be honest, to 90% of the western left, pronouns issues are a "real" issue whereas something like genocide in Yemen is a back burner issue that we virtue signal disapproval of. It's not that I think we shouldn't give a shit about trans issues, because as you said we can care about more than one thing. The issue is that we will spend years struggling about how to hurt people's feelings less in interpersonal interactions and not doing anything to help the billions of people ground into a paste by capitalism and imperialism. It's because western leftists aren't revolutionary, we are mostly lifestylists concerned with our own personal moral purity. I hate it because I don't know what to do about it.
Let’s be honest, to 90% of the western left, pronouns issues are a “real” issue whereas something like genocide in Yemen is a back burner issue that we virtue signal disapproval of.
It's sad to say but predominately white, Western posters are always gonna devote more energy to online minutiae than they will to life-and-death issues that only affect the global south.
Apparently "building an inclusive space for the movement" means setting up a laundry list of social rules one must adhere to that are unpalatable to 99.97% of the world population. We must be the woke vanguard and all the ignorant bigots in countries we bomb and subjugate need to do better. They need to get on our level if they want liberation.
while you trans whine about dumb shit like pronouns there's people out there with REAL issues!!
im an ally btw
Presenting this a purely a trans issue ignores that
a. the male normative culture of the internet affects cis women too
and b. not all trans people are on board with this, or believe or it’s a big issue that not everyone wants to set a pronoun
Yemeni fighter, we're currently arguing about pronouns and --
Yemeni fighter: You guys went to the fucking moon?
Yes. Now, I'm sure it must be disappointing to see
Yemeni fighter: In the fucking sky?
Haha yeah those stupid foreigners don't even understand space travel. It's like magic to them.
Gathering the scattered limbs of my daughter from the rubble of the latest drone strike: "at least they choose pronouns on chapo.chat"
And thus, a name was cast into the dark. From that day forward, nary a man or women dared to make an utterance of the nameless. The being existed still, yes. As powerful and mysterious as before, but now moved on from the worries and trifles of this mortal realm. Some still ponder at the motives of such an action, but most are too troubled by their day to day to make notice of the past. Time carries forward, but await's all within it. A return, when? If? Questions best left for the philosophers whomst livelihoods depend on unanswerable questions and unknowable circumstance. One truth remains. If a name is to return again, it must only be uttered by it's owner.
forget pronouns. we should have a height setting so i can discriminate against manlets (and womanlets!!!) on here too
hah, I'm half a foot taller than my partner so if I need to hide things they go on the top shelves first
That first thread where the actual transphobes came out swinging fired people up a lot (rightfully so, some of the comments in there were disgusting). That dogshit plus the users who gave shitty cop-out reasons for not setting them ("I'm too lazy to do 5 clicks" or "I'm a petty asshole and you can't tell me what to do, mom!") upset everyone, myself included. I don't think the six different struggle-sesh threads are helping the issue though.
after every wave of transphobia theres always at least one trans person who wants to be one of the good transes and declare that THEY didn't find (strawman version of events) to be transphobic
I think the idea is that not choosing pronouns is alienating to the people do experience disphoria, like if you were in an IRL group and only the GNC people had to give there pronouns that would be kind of shitty
It also doesn't help that the discourse brought a few actual transphobes out
Well, it's good that these folks outed themselves, because the purge never waits.
Here's an idea: how about if no one had to specify any pronouns? That's the beauty of online - anonymity. The simplest solutions are often the best ones.
Well like even on an anonymous forum you still need to use some sort of pronoun eventually, not everyone wants to be called they
They is an acceptable universal term to address people you're not dealing with face to face.
Besides, I still don't get what posting on an anonymous forum under a fake name does to alleviate disphoria?
Then she can set her pronoun without also attacking anyone who doesn't.
Pretty nifty that.
well that sure sounds like a real struggle
leftist orgs need to learn to tell the antisocial 5% who won't shut the fuck up "No. This is not for you."
This is a problem irl because there is a pretty high risk of someone misgendering you but this is an online forum so idk, I do not think it is as important...
It's moreso about normalizing self-identification within our microcosm. It's the bare minimum cis comrades should do to ensure it remains a welcoming space for trans and GNC people. It's gonna be a long fucking time before that's ever even remotely normalized irl, this is one place we can start.
Honestly I don't think this will be a big problem any more if we get to the point where people would normalise it irl. Like, if the world ever became so accepting I think it wouldn't be such a problem any more.
I know what you mean by GNC but I like to imagine you mean people who are very into protein shakes and workout supplements.
I mean that's actually generally how I like to be referred to, though I guess I meant he/she/they
I didn't try to jab at you i just understand the situation less and less, in the original post i was told to at least change it to any, i did it, now at least two people said it's actually bad as well and it seems like something even the trans community hasn't figured out so i don't know what to believe.
Coming from a country that uses gender neutral language i'm even more disturbed.
It's all good, I've stopped reading stuff related to this other than direct replies to my comment so idk what other people are saying but imo choosing something is good enough.
i really just dont understand why you cant write in your own - the argument provided was "we don't want people to put in joke answers", but then they put in doe/deer and cat/girl?
i think most people around at the start set them as soon as they were a thing
yes but there were complaints about it. OP is not just making up the transphobia accusations, that part is true
yeah I set my pronouns and I really hate having some gender statement stamped over every post I make. Look at my cat- OH HEY I'M A MAN BY THE WAY!
I made a joke about having "attack helicopter" as an insta-ban option, but isn't including "cat/boy/girl" similarly taking the piss, or is there some zoomorphic gender infantilization culture I don't know about?
No, I genuinely have no idea wtf catgirl/catboy is supposed to mean. I assume some furry fetish, but I'm game to be educated instead of mocked.
As a pronoun, I have no idea. But my friends and I sometimes call ourselves catboy/catgirl/etc..in that context it just means "me but with cat ears", and it's just a fun thing. If someone wants that as a pronoun, I am okay with doing so if they guide me on the grammar.
WHY IS THIS DOWNVOTED SO HARD.. I AM TRANS...
no, just a mentally ill person piggy backing on the trans rights movement for their own narcissism
well it seems like at least one person figured out custom pronouns, unfortunately
? this was one of the options
you have to pass a basic emotional stability check and then the admins give you a few of the 😎 cool crowd 😎 ones like attack/helicopter and whatnot
