Permanently Deleted
I've built up a tolerance to the China struggle sessions, that's weak lib shit now. I need newer, stronger forms of sectarianism to make me feel alive.
Absolutely, situations like yours are getting lost in the overall discussion here. There are legitimate reasons for some users to not want to identify with any pronoun. Much love to you :heart-sickle:
A comrade who is questioning or unsure of their identity doesn't have to do anything for you or I or anyone else. Your comments toward Senora sound much more like bullying than solidarity, the latter of which is the entire point of pronoun tags in the first place.
Yeah I find it weird to be so adamant about making everyone define their pronouns and gender. I know several trans/NB people who enjoy the anonymity of forums like this that allow them to forget about gender, pronouns and everything else that surrounds it. I thought part of the purpose of this forum was not to be like twitter or facebook where your account does not stay with you and doesn't have any bearing on who you are outside of political views.
I'm a cis guy who set my pronouns day one. It's a good sign of solidarity and this site is cool for doing it. But the way this has been handled is a complete and utter shitshow. Ironically, "not setting your pronouns is transphobic" is a really binary way of looking at the situation. By setting up such a hardline stance, the users became hardline as well. I've seen a lot of really cruel posting from people who I would consider to be my comrades. I think we all need to chill out a little, including myself. This feels uncharacteristic for this site and these hard lines in the sand do not help our cause.
Your username would imply your pronouns. For everyone that isn't the case.
Wasn't comrade originally popularized and intended to be a class and gender neutral form of address? How is it a "joke" smh
I don’t think none was an option before the original post that set this off, so people were being shamed and called transphobic for not choosing when there were inadequate options.
Did you reply to the wrong person? I haven’t called anyone transphobic.
am also trans and i fucking hate it that we have to poison even the internet with gender. we already have it in every single human interaction irl why can't the web remain anonymous?
Yea. My account isn't me. It's an online character. Why does it have to be gendered?
I think it's poor form to assume bad intent of users who choose not to specify. Obviously when bad intent is demonstrated it cannot be tolerated. I don't know if the aggressive demands all over the front page are a response to a sudden influx of bad people or if it's preemptive.
couple months
This site has existed for 2 months and this happens almost daily
especially when the default setting is blank flair. The way it is, there will necessarily be unflaired users. What if an unflaired person misses the struggle session today and logs in tomorrow?
Awful, shitty struggle session. this is a super nice and supportive place and the vitriol today is bizarre.
Agreed, the influx of users has brought a little negativity recently. It happens though, we all have to be patient with each other a little more. Now more than ever.
but this tone of "change them now or you are the enemy" is extremely not the general vibe around here.
You'd think, and yet it's the fucking admins posting this shit then pinning it to main.
@Beatnik, put some standards in place about "moderators" harassing the site with meaningless vitriol like this.
Thank you, you have described the situation perfectly, much better than I could have.
Whenever these struggle sessions emerge I just like to imagine showing a freedom fighter in Yemen the amazing progress the revolutionary left is making in the imperial core as our government decimates their people.
I get your point, and I agree that the continuing discussion around the issue is unproductive in a terminally-online way.
In the same vein, it's entirely possible to care about more than one thing at a time.
I mean how often do we have discussions this deep and involved about US Imperialism? The closest we come is china struggle sessions and honestly China is fine with or without us. Let's be honest, to 90% of the western left, pronouns issues are a "real" issue whereas something like genocide in Yemen is a back burner issue that we virtue signal disapproval of. It's not that I think we shouldn't give a shit about trans issues, because as you said we can care about more than one thing. The issue is that we will spend years struggling about how to hurt people's feelings less in interpersonal interactions and not doing anything to help the billions of people ground into a paste by capitalism and imperialism. It's because western leftists aren't revolutionary, we are mostly lifestylists concerned with our own personal moral purity. I hate it because I don't know what to do about it.
Let’s be honest, to 90% of the western left, pronouns issues are a “real” issue whereas something like genocide in Yemen is a back burner issue that we virtue signal disapproval of.
It's sad to say but predominately white, Western posters are always gonna devote more energy to online minutiae than they will to life-and-death issues that only affect the global south.
Apparently "building an inclusive space for the movement" means setting up a laundry list of social rules one must adhere to that are unpalatable to 99.97% of the world population. We must be the woke vanguard and all the ignorant bigots in countries we bomb and subjugate need to do better. They need to get on our level if they want liberation.
while you trans whine about dumb shit like pronouns there's people out there with REAL issues!!
im an ally btw
Presenting this a purely a trans issue ignores that
a. the male normative culture of the internet affects cis women too
and b. not all trans people are on board with this, or believe or it’s a big issue that not everyone wants to set a pronoun
Yemeni fighter, we're currently arguing about pronouns and --
Yemeni fighter: You guys went to the fucking moon?
Yes. Now, I'm sure it must be disappointing to see
Yemeni fighter: In the fucking sky?
Haha yeah those stupid foreigners don't even understand space travel. It's like magic to them.
Gathering the scattered limbs of my daughter from the rubble of the latest drone strike: "at least they choose pronouns on chapo.chat"
And thus, a name was cast into the dark. From that day forward, nary a man or women dared to make an utterance of the nameless. The being existed still, yes. As powerful and mysterious as before, but now moved on from the worries and trifles of this mortal realm. Some still ponder at the motives of such an action, but most are too troubled by their day to day to make notice of the past. Time carries forward, but await's all within it. A return, when? If? Questions best left for the philosophers whomst livelihoods depend on unanswerable questions and unknowable circumstance. One truth remains. If a name is to return again, it must only be uttered by it's owner.
forget pronouns. we should have a height setting so i can discriminate against manlets (and womanlets!!!) on here too
hah, I'm half a foot taller than my partner so if I need to hide things they go on the top shelves first
That first thread where the actual transphobes came out swinging fired people up a lot (rightfully so, some of the comments in there were disgusting). That dogshit plus the users who gave shitty cop-out reasons for not setting them ("I'm too lazy to do 5 clicks" or "I'm a petty asshole and you can't tell me what to do, mom!") upset everyone, myself included. I don't think the six different struggle-sesh threads are helping the issue though.
after every wave of transphobia theres always at least one trans person who wants to be one of the good transes and declare that THEY didn't find (strawman version of events) to be transphobic
I think the idea is that not choosing pronouns is alienating to the people do experience disphoria, like if you were in an IRL group and only the GNC people had to give there pronouns that would be kind of shitty
It also doesn't help that the discourse brought a few actual transphobes out
Well, it's good that these folks outed themselves, because the purge never waits.
Here's an idea: how about if no one had to specify any pronouns? That's the beauty of online - anonymity. The simplest solutions are often the best ones.
Well like even on an anonymous forum you still need to use some sort of pronoun eventually, not everyone wants to be called they
They is an acceptable universal term to address people you're not dealing with face to face.
Besides, I still don't get what posting on an anonymous forum under a fake name does to alleviate disphoria?
Then she can set her pronoun without also attacking anyone who doesn't.
Pretty nifty that.
well that sure sounds like a real struggle
leftist orgs need to learn to tell the antisocial 5% who won't shut the fuck up "No. This is not for you."
This is a problem irl because there is a pretty high risk of someone misgendering you but this is an online forum so idk, I do not think it is as important...
It's moreso about normalizing self-identification within our microcosm. It's the bare minimum cis comrades should do to ensure it remains a welcoming space for trans and GNC people. It's gonna be a long fucking time before that's ever even remotely normalized irl, this is one place we can start.
Honestly I don't think this will be a big problem any more if we get to the point where people would normalise it irl. Like, if the world ever became so accepting I think it wouldn't be such a problem any more.
I know what you mean by GNC but I like to imagine you mean people who are very into protein shakes and workout supplements.
I mean that's actually generally how I like to be referred to, though I guess I meant he/she/they
I didn't try to jab at you i just understand the situation less and less, in the original post i was told to at least change it to any, i did it, now at least two people said it's actually bad as well and it seems like something even the trans community hasn't figured out so i don't know what to believe.
Coming from a country that uses gender neutral language i'm even more disturbed.
It's all good, I've stopped reading stuff related to this other than direct replies to my comment so idk what other people are saying but imo choosing something is good enough.
i really just dont understand why you cant write in your own - the argument provided was "we don't want people to put in joke answers", but then they put in doe/deer and cat/girl?
The sub lost a lot of its actual dirtbag-ness with this site. Too much performative sensitivity toward groups that aren't being oppressed here.
I think the opposed concepts of "appropriation" and "appreciation" are overused, often reactionary, and almost always undertheorized in contemporary discourse and belie problematic essentalist beliefs.
That said, taking something and using it without seriously engaging with its contextual situation -- or seeming like you're not, which shakes out to the same thing -- is at the root of most situations where someone takes offense and calls something appropriative. If you don't mean to cause offense but also want to keep doing the offensive action--using a particular pronoun because you think it's cute--its worth thinking about why you are doing this and trying to communicate those reasons. This is the kind of thing that people mean when they talk about equity versus equality.
Just a thought!
Yes, only the worst moderators from the Discord became admins here. All the well adjusted people left after what a shitshow it was.
Which bodes well for the site.
Hope you read this @Beatnik
I'm sorry he treated you that way, Rachel. All I've seen from you has been good, you're cool.
Gee bud, if I were the type of person to be using anti-semitic dogwhistles I would have stayed on Reddit.
Dunno why they let in cat girl, but doe/deer is a legit neopronoun that one of our comrades uses.
Honest question: is it supposed to be funny? Like I don't know if that's a bit of cheekiness and levity being added toward usual choices (which is good and fine), or if I should just totally deadpan that (also fine).
You'd have to ask @flirty_fawn, I don't wanna answer for deer, but I think the latter
Supposedly, they don't want "Apache Helicopter"/CHUD-y "joke" ones. But yeah... it's weird how they allow some custom ones, but not all.
So now it is the admins who determine the legitimacy of pronoun choices, nice.
Saying it's an op is cope to avoid confronting the fact that maintaining a healthy culture within a large online community is really difficult and that human beings are frequently eager to meet points of friction as threats rather than expose themselves to the vulnerability of thorough self-examination.
(still, this sucks and I hope we're done with it)
Dammit I read this and it's probably theory and now I have read theory. : (
I agree. Can’t stand the blanket statements characterizing folks as transphobic bc it’s such an easy way for bad actors here to draw lines and sew division. Srsly if anyone wanted to infiltrate this place and ruin it for the whole gang all they’d need to do is hop on these struggle seshes and push the discourse that way.
The people pushing it are wreckers that would rather burn down one of the most active leftists spaces on the internet than feel even the smallest iota of personal discomfort.
NORMALIZED OPPRESSION IS NOT PERSONAL DISCOMFORT. Stop expecting people to be happy or okay with being misgendered or having their pronouns not used.
Me not wanting my account to be gendered is normalized oppression how though
I think that's fine. You should not be pushed to publically use pronouns if you don't want to.
The comment I responded to said people pushing pronoun use are trying to burn down a leftist space because they don't want to experience discomfort (the discomfort being invalidated in their gender identity). You are talking about a separate issue.
The issue isn't that trans people are being misgendered though, since people can select their pronouns if they'd like to.
The original comment is that some users are having discomfort because other users aren't selecting a pronoun.
I think the problem isn't that trans people are being misgendered (tho you can scroll down and find neo-pronouns being invalidated so that is a part of the issue) but that making selecting pronouns a "trans thing" is harmful and sets people up to be distinct and makes it not the norm. Users don't have to pick a pronoun. If they feel comfortable they should tho. I'm fine with people not picking a pronoun.
I don't think anyone is against pronouns to be available to users. This originally started because a group of users posted that not selecting a pronoun is transphobic. If you are arguing that pronoun use shouldn't be a "trans thing," I agree with you. But it was the original group that based their argument on assuming that all trans people have or want to select a pronoun and that if you don't, it's because you're transphobic.
There are trans posters in this thread that said they don't want to be forced into selecting a pronoun they like a blank default. So maybe the issue is some trans users assuming that their experience on chapo.chat is representative of all trans people. If it's cis users making this into an issue then idk what to say except that they're likely just wreckers
How does one person not listing their pronouns cause another person to be misgendered, or stop them from having their pronouns used?
That is not what your original comment was about at all. You said the entire discourse was wreckers unwilling to face personal discomfort. The personal discomfort you want them to deal with is being misgendered or not having their pronouns used.
I think there's some level of misunderstanding here. I was specifically referring to the people behind the myriad posts today with the general message of "anyone who doesn't set their pronouns is a TERF/transphobe/piece of shit and needs to leave this website."
Everyone can and should be able to choose pronouns they're comfortable with, and expect other people to respect that. The people I'm referring to are the ones who would kick people out of this space for not wanting to label themselves with a specific gender identity just for posting.
No one should be kicked off for not wanting to use pronouns (which are gender signifiers, not gender identity.) If you choose not to set your pronouns despite not having a problem with gender identity whatsoever- the most common group of people who do this being cis men who just can't be bothered- what exactly is the motivation there and why should I respect it?
Nobody is being misgendered though. Are you sure you understand what this stuggle sesh is about?
Yes, I understand. People want to have everyone set a pronoun. I think cis people should to normalize pronoun use. I also think we should not force anyone to box themselves into the use of a pronoun. The split right now is between people who think it's fine to leave it blank vs people who think someone who does not want to publically specify a pronoun should use "none". I think saying none is also a choice we should not force. I think a conversation is healthy and normal. You seem to think even the discussion is so polarizing it must be a purposeful wreck attempt. You also framed this as a matter of personal discomfort when that is super trivializing.
Yes, I understand. People want to have everyone set a pronoun.
Right. Which is not the same thing as misgendering users, which is what you've been posting about
i think most people around at the start set them as soon as they were a thing
yes but there were complaints about it. OP is not just making up the transphobia accusations, that part is true
yeah I set my pronouns and I really hate having some gender statement stamped over every post I make. Look at my cat- OH HEY I'M A MAN BY THE WAY!
Pronouns got real weird on twitter with so many bougies and wokescolds posting them in their bio, people who obvious-fucking-ly didn't give a lick about trans rights and are doing it performatively like a cheap woke badge they won at the county fair. Seeing so many empty-souled libs do it for so many years on twitter has really skewed my thought process on the whole thing. Like that shit got co-opted to the point where I'd really prefer to not gender myself to strangers.
Yeah, same. I find it distracting - I don't even like usernames really.
The reality is I never use ANY pronouns (that I'm aware of) relating to other posters online. Seems like just getting rid of gender altogether would be the luxury gay space communism way- in which case mando flagging seems long-game counter-productive...OR maybe it's the step to genderlessness.
❤️
yeah when do we ever talk about other posters in the 3rd person?
He/him doesn't mean you're a man. I know quite a few non-men who use he/him. They're not some big gender statement, you're just stating the way you'd prefer to be referred to.
When someone calls you the wrong pronoun, you're being misgendered. how could he or she not be a gender statement?
When someone uses the wrong pronouns, it's using the wrong pronouns, misgendering is a thing they're doing while they use the wrong pronouns. If I didn't know your pronouns were he/him and I called you "they" I would be using incorrect pronouns to refer to you, but I wouldn't be misgendering you.
Because pronouns are an aspect of gender identity and expression
I mean yeah isn't that what I said? I don't like everybody and myself having a gender statement stamped on every post. He/him doesn't necessarily shout "I'm a man" because dogs and cats can also be he/him. But it is a statement on my gender appended to every post I make, which feels like I'm shouting "YO MAN HERE" to my chapo friends.
edit: but I'm not trying to increase the quotient of antagonism on the site so I'll keep it until we collectively forget about it.
I made a joke about having "attack helicopter" as an insta-ban option, but isn't including "cat/boy/girl" similarly taking the piss, or is there some zoomorphic gender infantilization culture I don't know about?
No, I genuinely have no idea wtf catgirl/catboy is supposed to mean. I assume some furry fetish, but I'm game to be educated instead of mocked.
As a pronoun, I have no idea. But my friends and I sometimes call ourselves catboy/catgirl/etc..in that context it just means "me but with cat ears", and it's just a fun thing. If someone wants that as a pronoun, I am okay with doing so if they guide me on the grammar.
WHY IS THIS DOWNVOTED SO HARD.. I AM TRANS...
no, just a mentally ill person piggy backing on the trans rights movement for their own narcissism
well it seems like at least one person figured out custom pronouns, unfortunately
? this was one of the options
you have to pass a basic emotional stability check and then the admins give you a few of the 😎 cool crowd 😎 ones like attack/helicopter and whatnot
