cross-posted from: https://lemmy.crimedad.work/post/12162
Why? Because apparently they need some more incentive to keep units occupied. Also, even though a property might be vacant, there's still imputed rental income there. Its owner is just receiving it in the form of enjoying the unit for himself instead of receiving an actual rent check from a tenant. That imputed rent ought to be taxed like any other income.
Landlords should not exist in the first place. When fantasizing, why aim for mediocrity?
When fantasizing, why aim for mediocrity?
Mediocrity is as ambitious as liberals can be
They pay for it to be built. Unless you think the workers should work for free and not receive any benefit from their labor. Does hexbear know you feel this way? 🤣
Landlords don't pay for buildings to get built, the renters ultimately do. Landlords are just middlemen.
Landlords pay up front (directly or via a loan, which the renters presumably cannot get) and assume the risk of vacancies and repairs. If landlords ceased to exist, how do you propose new housing stock be created? Should the government be your landlord?
Landlords pay up front (directly or via a loan, which the renters presumably cannot get) and assume the risk of vacancies and repairs.
And then they get bailed out by the government when their risk blows up.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/landlords-were-never-meant-to-get-bailout-funds-many-got-it-anyway-11590494400
https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/blog/four-reasons-landlords-should-take-advantage-federal-rental-assistance/
And they have little to no risk in the first place because the market has such high demand that they can pretty much instantly fill vacancies, and they barely do repairs if at all. And at least where I live, renters are required to have/pay for renters insurance which further drives down the landlord's risk. And on top of all that, they have security deposits to lower their risk even further. They don't take on any meaningful risk.
If landlords ceased to exist, how do you propose new housing stock be created? Should the government be your landlord?
Government investment into housing development (which then turn into market rate housing/co-ops), zoning fixes, and a LVT is the solution. The builders get paid, home ownership becomes affordable, the risks are dealt with, and renters aren't being priced gouged. It would also do wonders to help fix the homelessness crisis.
And none of it needs the government to own your home.
Investment into housing development, zoning fixes, market rate housing, co-ops, and a LVT is the solution.
You can’t be serious? Let’s review.
Investment into housing development
By who..? Come on, be honest, who do you think is going to do this 🤣
zoning fixes
That allow who to build more housing?
market rate housing
Is literally what the West has right now.
Co-Ops
We have these now.
and a LVT
This is a fine step. Most states have property taxes now that include the land that a rental sits on.
If you can’t pay for your own housing, your choices are either for the government to pay for it, or for the private sector to pay for it. In either event the entity that owns your house, that isn’t you, is your landlord. If you can’t pay for your own housing, and you don’t want the private sector or the government to provide it for you, then you’re homeless.
Landlords pay up front (directly or via a loan
You're describing a developer. Most landlords aren't developers.
And yes, the government should take on the role of developing residential properties and ensuring everyone has access to them. Housing is not a commodity, it's a basic human need.
not to mention, many big developers aren't paying cash to construct housing. they get a loan or establish a line of credit with or brokered via investors/banks/funds. the first rule of doing anything under capitalism is to use somebody else's money to do it, and all those loans drawing on lines of credit ultimately leads back to the central bank anyway.
it's a massive shell game to obscure the fact that workers do all the work to create the products and services and then have to pay their shitty wages right back to access the very things they create, just so maybe 2-3 million megarich assholes can roll around in piles of money and make an income for doing literally nothing.
landlords are among the most nakedly parasitic sectors of society, and even then we still get bootlicking bozos pretending they "provide" housing or are somehow responsible for the community infrastructure that makes living in the place where the house exists desirable.
Oh the risk! Well sure that entitles them to take money from people who actually work. Go find a landlord and
Oh, so you just want the state to be your landlord? Enjoy your cinderblock gulag.
You can rent from someone else. That’s actually easier than moving cities, states, or countries.
Western countries already provide resources for our less fortunate friends and neighbors. But we don’t use the police power of the state to force those resources on people that don’t want them. We also don’t round them up and force them to fight for our Moscovi overlords that are just a itsy-bitsy more equal than the rest of us. Hmmmm
As someone who has been homeless, I would MUCH rather live my entire life in a "cinderblock gulag" then spend even a second homeless. So, yes, if we ever were to get such buildings provided to us from the government, I would greatly enjoy them.
sis, I would love living in a small apartment complex where everything is either five minutes away or easily accessed by public transportation
I would love being in an environment that promotes a collective spirit where people spend more time outside than inside
I would love having housing be 4% AT MOST of my monthly paycheck
but we gotta have idiots with trillions because they deserve to hang us out to dry, is that it?
of course they do. we actually understand that production doesn't require middle men. we're communists, fool.
No they usually don't pay for anything to be built. Even if they did, they just pay for it with other peoples labor (their renters)
Because you don't seem to be connecting the points together. Lead a horse to water but can't force it to drink kinda situation.
Landlords didn't do anything but have capital. Workers built the damn thing.
That's the water I was talking about.
Housing can get built without the professional middlemen involved, believe it or not.
People, collectively.
Ideally all the shitheads obsessed with "owning" get removed from the equation
Communism brought Russia from a feudal industrial backwater to putting the first people in space in the span like 20-30 years, and they crushed the Nazi war machine in the process.
Go and have a look at Russia to see how how this communist/socialist mindset worked out for them.
With an 89% home ownership rate? Yeah, damn, it would really suck for 9/10 people to live in a home that they own.
Almost all the top countries on that list are socialist or were socialist until the 90s. It's almost as if socialism actually results in homes being treated as basic needs for people instead of commodities for landlords to make money off of.
I used to be a bourgeois land owner, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Did you see that poor person? Filthy creatures.
Let me guess, it was also Venezuela's fault too?
People like you are all NPCs.
Heres one of the largest housing developments in new york: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-op_City,_Bronx
Let's start with pretty much the entirety of millenials and gen z that would love to own a home.
I mean, then there's the homeless.
Not landlords, because we're imagining a different society than the single model in your aphantasia afflicted head, believe it or not
Landlords do not build houses, they just rent them out. Housing, shelter call it whatever you like is human right and essential need, so it should not be a part of speculations for profits. Now you can see overpriced real estate because of investors who buy it and never live there. All this "helpers" who rent out their apartments bring more harm than benefit for society (they at least contribute to a price growth in real estate). Buildings could be constructed by government owned organizations in order to provide society with housing, no need in speculators to solve problems.
Ok, so you want the government to be the landlord as you have more trust in a government monopoly than in a market.
Yup. Basically. Although it is worth noting that the type of government we currently have, beholden to capital, is not trustworthy. Their priorities first and foremost are to serving corporate interests, which is probably why you trust them so little. Any power or public capital they are entrusted with gets pumped into private companies whose sole purpose is to make as much profit as possible for as little expenditure.
Any government brave enough to outlaw private landlords is going to have much more socially oriented priorities and will be much more inclined to serve the public good rather than the almighty market.
depends on problem you are going to solve, if you want to provide people with affordable housing, then challenge your beliefs in almighty market.
Fair.
If we, the workers, are the ones running that government monopoly and not an oligopoly of landlords and other speculators then yes, that would be more fair. It's also a vastly more efficient way to guarantee that everyone is housed, as history shows
Hmm yes, when I want a house built I call up a landlord, this is very logical behavior
70% of housing stock in the UK was built by the government in the 1970s
The same crews who do now 🤨
I never saw a landlord or developer do any work to prepare an area or build anything on any of the jobsites I was on.
Landlords should pay 100% tax on their empty rentals.
You'll see how fast they will accept any and all new tenants, at a much lower price.
Which would also flood the market with housing, lowering the prices even more until renting becomes an actual beneficial option compared to buying and paying off a loan.
Real estate would also not be seen as an investment anymore.
100% on their rental value, which for many landlords is directly tied to massive loans they're underwater on. That's why they'd rather have unoccupied rentals with nominally high values than reduce the rental price to match the market and have their loans called in.
The rental value would be $0.
Contrary to lemmy.world logic, 0% of 0 is 0
No, the rental value is the nominal price of the rental. This is extremely simple, a child could understand this. The landlords have gotten loans based on the assumed rental income, which is not $0.
They aren't making any income on rent. So what % would an income tax have to be to be >0$ exactly?
Seriously? OK, you must not really have thought about this before. They are listing their properties for rent but nobody is renting them. They're listing those properties at the nominal rental value. So the tax would be on that nominal rental cost. This is like, babytown frolics level simple to connect the dots on even if you don't agree with it - understanding this should have clicked like two replies back.
Real estate should be considered an investment. It's one of the few things people invest in that is actually valuable. It's the speculative and labrynthine financial markets that are the problem in that regard.
The only reason mega-renters like Blackrock and Vanguard are able to monolithically buy property in the first place is because of dubious speculative earnings and government bailouts.
It's not surprising that home ownership was actually a lot higher 60 years ago.
But why should it be anything but a personal investment? I'm not seeing your point there. Isn't it better for everyone to decommodify housing?
Why should it be anything but a personal investment?
What do mean? I don't see how what I said negates that.
Isn't it better for everyone to decommodify housing?
Not really no. Commodfication is why things used to be cheap. High [insert item here] prices are directly related to money printing, corporate welfare and regulations that are designed to raise the barrier of entry for normal people.
Commodifying things makes them cheap? As opposed to decommodifying? That makes no sense
Making something unsuitable for investment so we preserve its primary function (houses being a home to a family and not an airbnb or an empty rental).
People require to land to live on, it is a basic necessity, and basic necessities absolutely should not be considered an investment.
What should people invest in then? How is land ownership handled? Etc etc etc
What should people invest in then?
Literally any other type of business.
How is land ownership handled?
People should still be able to own land for their own personal use. Land used to extract wealth on the other hand should be more tightly controlled. We should ideally implement georgism to free up the land that the rich own and to increase land use efficiency. After that ownership should look pretty much identical.
Literally any other type of business
You've just eliminated perhaps the safest, most attainable method for the average person to achieve passive income.
Owning land for personal use
Other than living on it, why would someone want to own land?
You’ve just eliminated perhaps the safest, most attainable method for the average person to achieve passive income.
If the "safest most attainable way" to get wealth requires others to be homeless or unable to afford a basic necessity then it isn't not worth it.
And it arguably isn't the most attainable way, because so many people are being priced out of owning a home because of the current system's failures.
Other than living on it, why would someone want to own land?
To use it for a business or enjoyment. I'm not sure where you are going with this.
To use it for a business
This is wealth extraction
Or enjoyment
So you're okay with some rich person owning acreage as long as it's for their own enjoyment but not for a normal dude who has an investment property and is holding out for a renter that will adequately cover his costs and generate some profit?
There's more than enough housing that everyone can afford to own? Why are there homeless people then?
So, so many reasons...
At the individual level drugs are a HUGE reaaon, mental illness, poor care for veterans etc Although there is SOME government housing and charitable housing for people that need it.
At a macro level there is money printing, endless war, corporate welfare, cronyism etc
Let's face it though we could probably house everyone in Europe within South Dakota alone. Not to mention most homeless people are in extremely expensive areas like LA, Austin, Seattle and New York.
Passing an ill-conceived law that will have unintended consequences should be way, way low on the list of ways to lower housing prices. Especially since it's highly likely it won't be enforced properly.
Really butchering the language here to not say "passive income" or "making other people work for me"
I don't have a problem with either one of those things so pick your favorite.
You forget that for one to acquire said property one must first "exploit" one's self. What I do with the earnings from my exploitation is my business.
Landlords should not
Not a response to the post. Just making a statement about landlords.
Well eminent domain says we have to pay you a fair rate for the house. The property was taxed $2000 and earned no income last year so here's a bill for $40,000.
ITT: "If not for ticket scalpers, concerts wouldn't happen! They're providing a valuable service by hoovering up supply with their high capital and low morals, and then drip feeding it back to us at increased prices! Ticket scalpers, by buying all tickets at once, increase demand for bigger concerts, a net win for everyone!"
Anyway, yes, it won't fix the whole systemic issue and calling it an "income tax" is silly (it can just be a tax), but if the way to get you over the line is getting landlords to pay extra for empty apartments/houses so be it.
Income tax on no income sounds fucking stupid. Just up property tax on the 3th or 4th house or apartment by a fuckton, watch everyone panic sell their shit crashing the housing market into oblivion and call it a day. Ez affordable housing.
But then the almighty homeowners home value might collapse too!
But for real landlords wohld start destroying their own housing stock to take some tax write off or insurance fraud.
Most landlords are like massive corporations, if all the property your corporation owned suddenly exploded it may rise a few eyebrows. Someone's rich aunt renting their second summer home isn't having that much of a detrimental effect on the housing market as corpos buying up all available housing.
My point is they would find some way to legally dispose of their stock to artificially decrease supply and raise prices again. Its particularly the big corporations who would do this.
Maybe but then like stop whatever loophole they are using. Doing nothing is quite a lot worse.
Thankfully the housing market is still fine in my country so I don't have a dog in the race but people in the US should take some pointers from the French and fucking riot at this point. All of yall have like 5 guns per person yet you are like the most demure country when it comes to politicians and corpos just exploiting the fuck out of you.
people in the US should take some pointers from the French and fucking riot at this point. All of yall have like 5 guns per person yet you are like the most demure country when it comes to politicians and corpos just exploiting the fuck out of you.
Careful, that kind of talk gets you labeled a tankie
Multiple holder companies incoming. Now that will need to be plugged up.
Not saying this is a bad idea. But they will find loopholes.
landlords should be forced to pay a house tax on every house they don't live in to the value of one house
Whoa now, let's not be unreasonable. They can be taxed at a geometric rate, starting at 100% the value of the house and doubling for every one thereafter.
Property taxes do generally work this way. Maybe they should increase property taxes 2-3x, but also raise the homestead exemption so that owning and living in the home is no more expensive.
yeah I wasn't being serious any actual solution is going to need to be more nuanced than that. Probably involving state provided housing and likely involving high density accomodation. Although it's a real shame that high density accomodation is archtecturally associated with shoddily built housing intended for people the government doesn't give a fuck about because palaces and castles are also examples of high density accomodation.
I think the ideal solution would look like high density state provided housing that is designed to be beautiful and pleasant to live in.
How are you supposed to keep them from passing on the cost of taxes to their tenants?
You have to realize that they still "own" a limited resource that lends them power to leverage over others. The only way you make this abuse go away is to have the people collectively own the land. Any accommodating regulations you place on landlords will only be temporary until they are worn down and removed.
I hear this argument a lot and it's a trick to get the libs to not support taxes against landlords. In this situation, rental rates are dictated by how much the market can bare because there just aren't enough houses. Prices are set to the maximum so landlords would bare the cost of the tax rather than renters. If the taxation threat was real and long term enough, it would incentivize landlords to do something with empty units, rather than it not costing them anything to sit on it.
The state should stop enforcing the legal rights of landlords to own property and exclude people from its use through physical force, and should organize the people enough that they can defend themselves from retaliation to this change.
This article title makes ZERO sense. Empty house tax, sure.
But an "income" tax on no rent being paid?
Why would that EVER be passed by the people who own all of the houses? Don't waste the poors' time lol
"Income tax on no income" is exactly what imputed income is, as mentioned by OP. Free perks from an employer are, for example, (in the US), taxed as income.
https://www.hrblock.com/tax-center/income/what-is-imputed-income/
They can extrapolate the supposed income by looking at how much they asked previous renters.
Fyi, what you want to say is that we should have a wealth tax. I agree with you on that. We should also tax stock holdings similarly.
I have an idea
