love my Oma, she's turning 90 next week (born 1934!) and was the first person I came out as bi to. Defo hanging one or two of these up in my dorm
Whenever people imply communism = lack of incentive for human greatness, I think about how my grandparents had lower class parents and were extremely poor (even starving) in their post-war childhood, but ended up leading pretty impressive lives, despite knowing they wouldn't live much above the material reality of their neighbors for it.
My grandma was an interior architect and my grandpa an astrophysics professor and professional photographer. Both were gymnasts in their 20's (my grandpa has a couple medals below). They didn't do any of that shit for luxury, they figured they'd lead a modest life in the standard plattenblau housing block as the other working people of their town (small but cute and cozy apartment, I was there not too long ago), and that's what they wanted.
They never needed to drive a car in their lives, and often visited countries across the Eastern Bloc by bike/public transit. My grandma always had a thing for making fruit preserves and cool pottery (still killing it), and my grandpa for art from wood carving (he was also a mountain climber). They had a nice community garden they always tended to too. It's a beautiful town with a lot to see, honestly can't wait to visit again
My mom was 19 when the Berlin Wall fell. She studied english abroad when everything went to shit under capitalism. Ended up moving to the US just because she met my dad. Usually when she tells an American she grew up in the DDR, they look all shocked and ask some insane shit like if she was starving to death, or if she knew anyone who was shot and killed trying to climb the wall (💀⁉️). Certainly no one was starving by the 70s/80s. My mom and all her friends and acquaintances had great childhoods. She had a small town, middle of nowhere school system that pushed sports, music, art, multilingualism, sciences, etc. on her heavily (when I did track and field in high school she always told me how her school's facility was 10x better lmao). The DDR fostered genuine human greatness. But ig they didn't have bananas at grocery stores and a hundred car brands like the west 🤷♂️
or if she knew anyone who was shot and killed trying to climb the wall
In four decades of the wall being up, about 140 people were shot trying to climb the wall. More Palestinians have been killed by a single US bomb but Americans will not stfu about the former while not giving a shit about the later.
but ended up leading pretty impressive lives, despite knowing they wouldn't live much above the material reality of their neighbors for it
not calling you out, just pondering on this attitude in general - why would anyone want to live better than their neighbors???
that idea is baffling to me, I want everyone around me to have at least as much happiness and enjoyment as I do, and I can't imagine that's an uncommon attitude around here
can somebody help me understand why "living a material reality above that of their neighbors" is something anybody wants??
They just want to "win" or what?? (and win what??)
It's a huge things among boomers, if pop culture and my parents are anything to go by. Having less than someone else is shameful because we associate wealth with virtue.
I don't understand why they want to be more virtuous than other people, either! 😂🤦 doesn't it make much more sense to want everyone to have the same amount of virtue???
I think maybe my lack of competitiveness makes it hard for me to understand why anyone wants to be perceived as "better than" others.
It is a bit odd isn't it. Even in my occasional fantasies of ruling from a throne of skulls any power rush is just how much I'd finally be able to do to give people more agency and power over their own lives, individually and collectively. (this comment was authorised by the Campaign of Mardoniush for General Secretary of the World Union, 2035! Vote Mardoniush, Beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!)
Calvinism. There's a christian ideology that holds that material status in life is a reflection of god's approval. Having less literally means one is less godly.
I don’t think it’s that lol. At least, it may just explain other phenomena in terms of theology. If you’re poor, hungry, cold, alone, and everyone you see who isn’t those things are very rich or at least richer than you, then wouldn’t it be a natural conclusion to think you must also be like that to elevate yourself from misery?
Of course, maybe you, specifically, wouldn’t think that way because of the different history and political books you’ve read. But we’re talking about the average person, and the average person back then in post war Europe and post colonial Asia, Africa, and the non-west Americas had just gone through multiple wars and slavery. I doubt they truly gave a shit about what God thought about their possessions. They know they were miserable when they were poor, and less miserable when they escaped poverty.
I cant speak for OP but my Parents are also German boomers and a very rampant Part of Most boomers is the Attitude that If Others have it worse than you then it cant be that Bad for you.
You cant blame them all for it because some use it as a coping mechanism trying to be more content with what they have. For me that coping mechanism never worked because i never got how that should be making me feel better.
Then i got it. This only makes you feel better If you place your own wellbeing above others. This way you also trick yourself into accepting one of Capitalism oldest lies, the implicit scarcity of the world. Meaning If Others have it worse you implicitly have to be better Off because Theres Not enough for everyone.
Ofc in this system everyone has to Look for their own wellbeing. But i wont be Feeling better because Others have it worse. In fact in my Mind human suffering IS human suffering and Others having it worse Just makes me feel worse.
You can’t eliminate poverty mindset in just a few decades. Success, as we see it today and back then before the various socialist revolutions, usually meant you are able to move upward in society.
I don’t think many people have the explicit goal of “being better” than their neighbors, it’s just that’s how it usually ends up being. And a lot of the times success meant (and means) you don’t have time to look back on the people you left behind because you may be a paycheck away from ending up like them again. You start comparing yourself to others’ success or lack thereof because you’re worried about materially being in a worse spot than where you are now - it’s not always out of competition.
Socialist countries were changing what was considered valuable in life, as seen here with the state encouraging students to pursue the arts in addition to hard science and other technical fields. But it takes longer than a couple generations to understand that you don’t need a 5 story home and 3 cars to be considered “no longer poor and struggling” or “successful.”
But that’s why capitalist propaganda is so pervasive, especially back then. Imagine being uplifted from absolute poverty or in some countries, literal shackles and chains, and you get to live inside a house and sleep in a bed and go to school. Everything seems good, but then you keep seeing ads about America getting a bunch of pop stars visiting or fifty variations of mayonnaise or everyone is wearing jeans. Everyone is happy and smiling with their new treats. It’s not always malicious - in fact you may desire all that crap for your own country because you went through absolute destitution, and now you wish for happiness for others, and everyone is smiling on the American commercial so what’s bad about it? You believe that it would enhance the existing society, not replace it. I believe this was one of the main betrayals of the East Germans. Many believed that their capitalist brothers would simply enhance their lives, but when the walls fell, they immediately came in and stripped the East of its industries and services.
Usually when she tells an American she grew up in the DDR, they look all shocked and ask some insane shit like if she was starving to death, or if she knew anyone who was shot and killed trying to climb the wall (💀⁉️).
"oh yeah? It sounds to me like they were 1984 Stasi informants spying on their neighbors. Smh clearly they were commie elites
"Jokes aside that looks awesome!
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
I see that DDR turned out nicely for some. Unfortunately my Grandpa was imprisoned for being against the governmet at the time there, while the other part of my family was basically cast out for being capitalists (They had a small "factory" with 5ish workers). So there certainly have been some downsides.
They arrested poor Opa until he stopped publicly advocating for fascism and HUMILIATED the small business tyrant by freeing his hungry serfs
(They had a small "factory" with 5ish workers)
they say like it's a normal thing to have
ah yes, everyone gets those after they turn 18 dontcha know?Yeah, like...I have no illusions that the DDR made some errors, but even if all of society was structured like his "factory" he'd be in the top 18%.
In any case, both the SU and the DDR were happy to place former owners in administration roles (made things simpler) as long as they were willing and well liked by the new Worker's Council.
Political repression is obvious not ideal - political openness and free expression are objectively preferred over limiting political expression. But… this is the ideal. The practical reality is that, in times of war every country represses political expression. In the US, UK, and France, for example… in WWI or WWII, what happened to you if you spoke out against the war? Spoke in solidarity with workers in the “enemy” country? What if you expressed that you wanted your country to capitulate to the German Empire/Third Reich?
And make no mistake, for the entirety of the existence of the DDR, it was in a state of war. The capitalist west poured as many resources into toppling socialism in the east as they would a real shooting war. Allowing complete free expression would have opened the door to complete manipulation by the west. To do otherwise would be to betray the very workers - the great majority of the people - who built the DDR. You’re in a workers state and the state is entrusted with the protection of those workers. Anyone who is acting in a way that betrays those workers should be dealt with. Political repression isn’t great but as you saw what happened in the 90s in the former DDR, the workers suffered immeasurably from “losing” the Cold War.
There is very strong relationship between how much political expression a government allows and the level of existential threat that same government faces. In the US or Germany today, sure you can express your politics all you want. Because any form of political expression poses ZERO threat to the powers that be. If we were ever in a situation where in the US, the left posed a real threat, I guarantee you all our free speech protections would go out the window. By the way, in the free, capitalist Germany of today, what would happen to you if you went into the town square and openly expressed solidarity with Hamas - an organization which poses zero threat to Germany or Germans?
And to another point… I am more familiar with USSR than the DDR, but I think it’s fair to say the former was more repressive of speech. And the reality is that, at least after Stalin, in the USSR you could fit the number of people jailed for political crimes in any given year into one-half of a basketball court (that’s in a country orders of magnitude larger than the DDR). That’s for several reasons, but a big one is that the USSR had a policy of prophylaxis. First off, if you were just complaining about your representative or if you were a capitalism enjoyer, you were generally left alone. You actually had to do enough to get on the radar. And if it got to that point, someone would approach you and tell you to knock it off, or there would be consequences. And lots of people who were brought to trial weren’t convicted because they weren’t a big enough threat, and plenty more similarly had convictions overturned. The point of all this is to say, in much of the Eastern Bloc, it took quite a bit to actually get in jail for political expression. If you’re at the point where you are in jail, there’s likely a long road that brought you there. So when you say “my grandfather was jailed for speaking out against the government”, I am going to apply a hefty dose of skepticism that he was just expressing his displeasure to friends at the local cafe or whatever.
'If we were ever in a situation where in the US, the left posed a real threat, I guarantee you all our free speech protections would go out the window'
Look back to the red scare. The U.S felt somewhat vulnerable to the left, and repressed people for expressing leftist ideas. The 'House Un-American Activities Committee' (HUAC) existed until 1978. They banned all sorts of expression.
Hey, thanks for the long and more nuanced answer. There are a lot of arguments you are adressing.
It's true that DDR always was in a state of emergency or (cold) war. I am shure that every other country in this state would limit the free expression of speech, but that does not mean that's always a good thing. On the one hand you want to stop influence from your enemies, but on the other hand it's also important to let people express themselves. I mean the workers have to stand behind the state/war/whatever to justify it's existence, don't they?
In the best case people who are against the governmet should be given the Chance to leave, but this also was not always the case in DDR. Especially high skilled, technical workers were imprisoned when they unsuccesfully tried to leave or helped (See: https://sci-hub.st/10.1017/s0007123420000216 , sorry for sci hub, but the article was not available to me otherwise). So why hinder people to leave?
Also, there were Not only a handful of imprisoned people. As you can see, there were a lot of people politically imprisoned. See also this Paper: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/00220027221124247 (In Figure 1). The second paper even states: "The SED regime imprisoned between 200,000 and 250,000 individuals for political reasons". So a lot of people were affected.
Ngl, you seem dishonest with that calculation of political prisoners
imprisoned between 200,000 and 250,000 individuals for political reasonings
First of all, that's from your WEST German parliament over there, using the number for political propaganda purposes
If you checked your first study, it'd be around 28,705 prisoners on average per year...
Show
Unless you decided to stack the figures high, I don't think you'd get that amount...
That being said, other than that, I won't argue for or much for you, who has an ax to grind against the DDR.
Go back to your techbro stuff and play devil's advocate for another western country in lemmy.ml....
Okay techbro is doing a quick calculation: 28.000 per year. DDR existed for roughly 40 years 1949-1990. If you just multiply that, you would get 1.120.000 prisoners. Of course some of them had longer sentences than just a year. So 200.000 seems an okay-ish assumption.
Just to clarify, could you take a look back at the data and see if its labeled population inflow or input, or just simply the overall prison population of that year...
The source you are criticising just states the 200.000-250.000, unfortunately I do not have access to the original source but have to rely on this citation here.
My assumption is, that 200.000 was meant over the course of the DDR's existence.
The sci-hub source even states the ~28.000 per year. So without in- or output. Just total persons imprisoned. And as I already stated, this could fit the overall 200.000-250.000 over the existence of DDR if you assume that some of them stayed longer than a year or were imprisoned for a second or third time.
If you found a section, paragraph or other source with in- or output of prisoners this would certainly be interesting.
So why hinder people to leave?
Weren’t many of those skilled workers educated by state institutions? Not justifying it, but the likely mindset, aside from whatever perception of making your citizens “impure,” is that you have spent decades of valuable resources to educate these folks to contribute to your society, and now they want to leave - for whatever reasons - and contribute to the enemy’s society who prays for your downfall.
This is happening in Puerto Rico. Students are getting educated by their schools and leaving to the US because there are no opportunities there. And real estate developers and investors swoop into the decaying island to enrich themselves. PR is not barring people from leaving, but they’re definitely frustrated that their investments are not paying off and perhaps even actively harming them.
Hey, yeah this is of course a Problem in many countries, "Brain-Drain" is no fun. I am also not shure on how to best address this. but I do not think that people should be imprisoned (okay, harsh term, but I am lacking better vocabulary here) by their native country. Everyone should ideally be able to roam freely. What would you suggest? Have them at least work some x years in their homecountry? Let them leave if they agree to pay back their education? Genuinley curious.
sooo your grandpa was a nazi and your family were parasites
sounds like they got more or less what they deserved
sooo your grandpa was a nazi
This was my immediate thought. He was a small business owner in the DDR. He didn't start running a private factory DURING the DDR, right? It under the prior regime, AKA the Nazis. What do you call a successful businessman in the Third Reich? A fucking Nazi.
while the other part of my family was basically cast out for being capitalists
Good.
Unfortunately my Grandpa was imprisoned for being against the governmet at the time there, while the other part of my family was basically cast out for being capitalists (They had a small "factory" with 5ish workers). So there certainly have been some downsides.
I see only upsides.
A lot of the younger ones weren't able to secure a apprenticeship at all, even if their grades were good. They also could not study, also a No from the government for them. People in towm generally were distancing because no one wanted to be associated with them.
I mean you can argue against capitalism, there are weaknesses and downsides. But I would say this method of basically punishing the family for the actions of one man ist not quite right.
Unfortunately my Grandpa was imprisoned for being against the governmet at the time there, while the other part of my family was basically cast out for being capitalists
Lmao
What's your opinion on immigration?
No. You can dislike DDR or have been imprisoned there without being one.
Was grandpa one though? What reference did he have for disliking it since Germany in his lifetime was never good
What about "No" do you not understand? You just had to look to west Germany and would see an economically easier life. Also DDR was not exactly a real demoncary, so this was frustrating, too.
Grandpa was wrong if he couldnt see how and why West Germany got that money
Could be. Still wrong to imprison people just for wanting to leave. Also it's not like DDR was perfect with handling their workers, they did shit things, too
DDR were probably justified if the alternative is becoming a capitalist colonialist puppet state
Then please show me west german colonies. Both east and west germany might have benefitted from their colonial past in which both were involved. To my knowledge germany lost all of it's colonies in first world war. Also why do you think the GDR was not a puppet state itself?
Also hot Take: Mods removing my comment but not others which aim to be insulting on a personal level is problematic.
The US government pumped West germany with reconstruction money which in turn came from mass exploitation of any part of the world that could not resist it. Also, please note that Germany still has many American military bases, Germany is a puppet state and the money the US pumped into it wasn't done out of good will and the greatness of capitalism. It doesnt matter if it does or doesnt have a colonies itself its a willing participant in the oppression of the global south and is a dog of the US.
No one cares. This isnt the place to humor liberalism.
But the US does still pay a lot of countrys aid. Does that make them colonialist? Every country on the list in the link down below?
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/countries-that-receive-the-most-foreign-aid-from-the-u-s
And I think there has to be more influence in a country than some military bases to be a puppet state. See list of US military bases: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_military_installations All of them puppet states?
I am unsure what you want to say with your last sentences, but I am sure that you do not speak for all people. So a sentence like "No one cares." is just ignorant and dishonest. :)
All of them puppet states?
Yes exactly, what do you think happens if those countries suddenly remove those American military bases?
I think this differs very much from the term puppet state. If there has been some agreement you can not easily draw back, this is clear.
Definition of puppet state from Wikipedia: "Puppet governments are usually kept in power by military force provided by an occupying country and are strongly controlled."
So please prove that all of the countries, in which the US hast Military bases, have governments which are only upheld by the force of US military.
Also, a lot of countries have Military bases in different countries. Are all of these countries now automatically puppet states? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_overseas_military_bases
You can also see in this list, that Germany has another active Military Base from UK. Please decide now to which country Germany is a puppet state, UK or US? Oh and France has one, too. Maybe Germany is governed by France? All of them?
All of them, why are you being so naive?
Its a western bloc run by the US, all of these countries went to Iraq when they had zero reason to go
To frame my answer differently:
How is it naive not to believe someone on the internet who isn't even backing up arguments with sources?
Also: Please show me participation of germany in iraq war.
And please answer to my argument of the military backed government. If you do not accept the definition of puppet state I posted, please provide another.
Furthermore: You do not need to be a puppet state to go to war together. You can simply be allies or have the same interests.
Okay, my comments are getting removed again. For what exactly, mods?
Oh wow, are we now at just throwing insults, because you are in lack of arguments? Look at you, you must be proud of yourself for not understanding "No, he was no Nazi" and your firm worldview which can not handle a disussion with some rando on the internet.
But you did. I did not even start to discuss with you specifically. Could have ignored me.
I guess i lost interest after you started defending western imperialist nations and your nazi grandpa
- start discussion
- "loose interest" when opponent hast different opinion that me
Why even start?
Bonus points for bringing forth the same insult again and again.
Im not here to argue with you or anyone for that matter this is my space, i dont care about your opinion, you can hear mine but please shut the fuck up otherwise
All of them puppet states?
Do yourself a favour and look up what happened when the Australian PM tried to close the Pine Gap military base.
I am always very much in favor of people providing their spources themselves, if they want to make a Point.
Here's a couple to get you started :)
If reading ain't your speed, this video has some background on it (as well as a list of sources in the description).
Hey thanks for the Ressources. Gonna give them a try this evening or tomorrow.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
