Global Leftists/MLs ought to know that they’re considered absolute morons by the entire US SocDem base.
Seriously though, the DemSoc hate is beyond fucking absurd. AOC didn’t win her seat for being a raging socialist calling for international liberation or whatever stupid lipservice leftists want American left wing politicians to stand on.
AOC and her close colleagues got the seats for being social democrats, I don’t know what that’s so hard for leftists to fucking process. And I have no doubt in my mind that if any of the newly elected progressives ran a more explicitly socialist message they would have lost tenfold. Why don’t you get off your high fucking horse and admit to the fact that American progressives don’t get the luxury of flying based red flags with yellow stars and instead have to cater to American capital and naive liberals and hopeful democrats who’ve grown mildly disillusioned with party leadership.
That being said, I’m willing to bet that Bernie and his band of progressives have done more to make self identified socialists in American in that last 4 years than Gloria La Rivera has done in her entire career, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation had Bernie never ran the first place, so either get in line or fuck off, because this DemSoc hate is the most childish and pedantic shit in leftist circles.
-7DeadlyFetishes
Global Leftists/MLs ought to know that they’re considered absolute morons by the entire US SocDem base.
And we should care about that opinion why exactly?
:thonk:
-Chutt_Buggins
There is not a single elected official who is on the side of the left that high up in politics.
Exactly this and there quite literally can not be.
I know mr.fetishes is trying to be a pragmatist but this is why it’s not pragmatism to support socdems that get elected and immediately sell out, tho it’s not really selling out if they were never really on our side to begin.
If you really want to pragmatically support socialist ideas it’d more valuable to join/start an organization and do irl praxis in your community and educate than to go, “hey at least aoc voted no on that bad bill, praxis, yas kween.”
These socdems funnel praxis into status quo approved methods of political engagement the same way any other liberal politician does, they just do it for the more fringe lefties who haven’t completely broke off from electorialism yet.
Who "got elected and then immediately sold out"? Who in the United States political system ran as a socialist then immediately abandoned their principles for material gain? Do you consider Cori Bush a sellout? Or was she never on our side or what?
Like, do you think these elected socialists are good immediately until they get elected, then they're sellouts the second they take the oath of office? Or are they sellouts the minute they consider going from activism to elected office? I'm not asking this in bad faith I'm genuinely curious.
Sellout was a bit loaded but I meant that more that that’s how some people talk about them.
I don’t consider social Democrats socialist. None of the “socialist” American politicians are socialist. They are capitalist who want more social programs that’s why they’re “social” democrats.
That’s what I meant by “it’s not really selling out.” Cuz they’re not, they’re doing exactly what you’d expect them to do.
And that’s perfectly fine. But it’s reasonable and expected that socialists, who want worker control, to not like it when a capitalist does capitalist things (like supporting capital and imperialism) and we shouldn’t give them a pass simply bc they like social programs. We’re allowed to call them out for stuff like that.
Not every way people do it is above board or the best way but I think it’s silly to say “we’re not gonna criticize socdems” it’s the same energy as liberals putting their candidates above criticism for equally “pragmatic reasons”
then they’re sellouts the second they take the oath of office?
and dont make it clear they hate the dem establishment more than AES lmao, if you can support a coup against maduro u can support one against pelosi
Global Leftists/MLs ought to know that they’re considered absolute morons by the entire US SocDem base.
yeah fuck the DNC and the democratic base, right back atcha bud lmao the competent imperialists the ones were supposed to like i guess?
calling the victims of americas global imperialism morons LMAO ok buddy enjoy ur functioning not collapsing country where u cant go outside, ur so damn pragmatic thanks for the student massacre in 68
youre not wrong and im pretty sure they dont disagree with you either, rather the last time we had people saying this outloud in american politics they were all murdered on TV. our government committed crimes against its own people in the 60s too. i think the only point trying to be made is that social democracy is the only thing anybody can advocate for in a political forum here. anything more is at best ignored, at worst... dealt with
a revolution is not a dinner party
not to shit on socdems, socimperialists, socdems are socdems the worldaround and theyre largely just reformists
I forget where I got this from, I think someone made a joke with it on the CTH sub and I figured I would add it to the litany of alts I was using on there.
I think I was also fresh off seeing that list of fake american baseball players for an old Japanese video game and thought it would fit perfectly.
ought to know that they’re considered absolute morons by the entire US SocDem base.
Ok but who gives a shit what a bunch of imperialist westerners think about global politics?
I’m mostly with you, demsocs should be criticized but they’re mostly fine, socdems aren’t really our friends and it’s kinda silly to pretend otherwise. There’s historical reasons to be wary of it and I mean if Democrats are controlled opposition, are socdems as well?
They’re basically called in to defend capitalism when it’s on its last leg, e.g. the new deal era policies, that can be undone later when the masses are placated.
I know we’re between a rock and a hard place here, but recognizing that only placating capital gets you elected, at what point are you just complicit in its imperialism and exploitation by capitulating to its demands?
And if you’re aware of all that’s going on in capital, is being one out of 200+ people to vote “no” ocassionally on a bill that guts social security really a success? (And vote yes to go bomb over exploited countries in the global south in the case of both Aoc and Bernie btw. So is material, lethal harm to global poor so the privleged few in the imperial core can have healthcare ok? Because that’s how they vote)
Especially compared to fighters in imperialized nations who fight literally for their and their people’s freedom?
Bc in my view saying get “in line” with that is materially indiscriminate from any liberal saying “biden won y’all, time to go with the party line, don’t disrupt or you’ll cost us the seats to republicans.”
I think people in power should be criticized even, socialists we mostly agree with. If nothing else to remind ourselves that our elected leaders should be doing better and these are the ways they could be doing it.
Bernie and his band of progressives have done more to make self identified socialists in American in that last 4 years than Gloria La Rivera has done in her entire career
Makes sense when you consider Bernie and co have been telling everyone that socialism is when the government gives you healthcare and free college. We need class consciousness and solidarity not self-identified socialists. One can recognize the effect Bernie and company have had pulling apoliticals as well as some libs and chuds to a socdem position, but they won't send them any farther left than that. Part of actually dragging soc dems left is, uhh, calling out when their positions or their favorite politician's positions are wrong, and challenging assumptions and misconceptions they often have in particular with regards to imperialism. Left unity is for people who actually want to abolish capitalism.
Voters don't even know what social democrats even are (they're like super democrats, right? (Yes)) and she did win by paying lip service, to Medicare for all and revolting against the establishment, so what's the point of winning when they just rollover as soon as they get into office?
Continue arranging the deck chairs if you want though.
youll have to fuckin kill me if you want my stalin memes asshole
Holy shit what the fuck is up with her. Her twitter feed is vile. Michael Tracy BS.
Yes, electoralism is bad, but it's hard to decide if it's got worse influence than the fake-leftist RT crowd.
How is it abuse though? Sharing your feelings is not careerism, it’s being human
Ok, I will post my thoughts on it.
Considering noticeable portion of woman experienced some trauma, if your ideal expectation is around 45-50 percent representation in politics, dozens of them would be in congress/whatever legislative body in %country%. If every single one of them telling their stories is abuse of trauma (and then, logically they shouldn’t share them then), then that’s just perpetuating patriarchy frankly. Person can not abuse their own feelings or trauma (at least you cannot conceivably ever know, if they are acting in good faith or not), only others can use them and thus abuse trauma. Thus having strong judgment on personal stories is exceedingly alienating, in my view, you will throw the baby with the water so too speak, or your judgment trying to separate the two (good/bad faith) would be clouded by other factors.
Every politician probably have played with other people feelings, including communist ones, be it either rousing speeches or backroom shenanigans.
Judge the actions, not stories or feelings.
"This random woman makes my peepee hard and I feel the need to tell everyone!!"
How exactly do you expect to grow this place when there are constant posts like "Haha social democrats are fucking losers!!!" I wouldn't make an account here if I considered myself a socdem. Those are the people you can draw to the board, share ideas with, and radicalize...right? I don't get the point of shitting on people that are actually really close to getting it.
Idk who this person is but it is understandable that a person from a country being exploited and destroyed by imperialist nations to have a negative view of people who are “helping” build social programs for its people but have just as bad, or nearly as bad to the point of it being materially irrelevant, a track record of supporting imperialist policies towards the global south/poor and maybe express that in a somewhat vitriolic way.
And I think it’s kinda of chauvinist to think we should mollycoddle some westerners over the voice of extremely exploited people who are hurt by those policies.
Now if she’s a westerner or whatever my point still stands that we gotta learn about this stuff eventually.
I was once a western chauvinist socdem until a communist called me out on it, I did self-crit over time and now i see where they were coming from.
Yeah so long as Bernie supports drone strikes and votes to confirm CIA ghouls to cabinet positions, American SocDems should never complain about leftists in the global south making fun of them.
I mean, I was still calling myself a liberal when I started using the old sub
sure I didn't feel welcome at first, so instead I listened, learned and adapted until I was welcomed
on the other hand, I was already used to hanging out in online spaces that were actively hostile to me and my opinions, which may not be true of most people
Those are the people you can draw to the board
Honestly, it isn't bad to have people dunk on SocDems. They killed Karl and Rosa after all (and gave up worker's solidarity for Imperialistic nationalist WW1).
ML's wonder why social democrats / democratic socialists hate them. I didn't even consider ML stuff until I met some irl and they had way better faith looks at my takes. Now I'm way more leaning towards their direction.
The subreddit swelled to hundreds of thousands of people on the back of posting pigpoopballs at chuds and shitting on socdems i think we'll be fine.
Easy, if they're so close to getting it then they will be able to laugh at themselves, if not then nothing of value has been lost. Converting libs should not be your goal, only separating the wheat from the chaff.
No! If this site reaches over 15K it will get too big and suck and we will long for the old days. Stop posting anything, so no one else joins.
she is not wrong but it is because we think every single american is an absolute clown
Is true, though I can't speak as my country's "left" is in shambles right now
Then maybe the global south should shut up and :vote: for someone other than republicans.
I have to go to work so this will be the last thing I say on this socdem stuff but:
Imagine, if you can, you’re a person born into a country where what you make now in the imperial core in an hour is the weekly or monthly wage. You know your country is ravaged by the forces of imperialism and recognize socialism is the only way to right the wrongs of the current world order
You hear about the empire of all capitalist oppression having some “socialist” politicians and they say “Medicare 4 all, anyway bomb Yemen or whatever I guess lol” and you, knowing how core anti-imperialism is to socialism just have to laugh. That’s not a socialist
As with all struggle sessions I’ve seen on this site this primarily comes from someone in a position of relative privilege forming an opinion about something with little to no regard for the people who are hurt most by it. It is chauvinism to immediately clutch pearls for some imperialists when they’re being criticized by those that are exploited by that imperialism.
I’m sorry but if there was a button in front of me that said “no able bodied cis white people in the imperial core ever get health care ever but capital pulls out of the global south rn” I’d push it 100 times. There’s no reason people should work from the time they can walk in horrific conditions and live tragic lives so we can be fail children and play Pokémon into our 30s (relatively speaking of course, I am aware oppression exists here but it’s way more present for the global poor).
Please listen to some videos of hakim or other comrades in exploited countries, or read Modern Imperialism by John smith.
It is fine to want better for your community but it shouldnt come at the expense of already brutalized communities and if it does we, as socialists are morally obliged to speak up on the behalf of those whose voices are given no regard by capital.
Who do you think you have more in common with ideologically and goal wise? A politician, now with vested interest in capitalism and making 174k+ a year, or the exploited proles, your comrades in these poor countries. Stand up for your comrades.
it's no different than joining the army, killing poor brown folks is secondary, free college and the pursuit of a comfortable consumerist lifestyle is their primary concern.
I'm dumb but imo there is a real distinction between American liberal progressives and American socdems. Lib progressives often think just like conservatives about class, as if talking about it is disrespectful to the individual or other clown shit, whereas socdems are only too 'practical' at worst
For us maybe. I mean they occasionally vote decently (on domestic issues) compared to other American politicians and if they made up a larger portion of congress we in the imperial core would probably have some more safety nets and better social services. But they’re not out to build socialism so if that’s what you want they’re gonna be at odds with you from that eventually, one can’t vote in socialism in a capitalist system.
But for a person in a country that is exploited by imperialist countries, like say hakim, who lost friends and family to americas war on terror in his country, the distinction is a lot more meaningless see as their track record on foreign policy is mostly as bad as any other American politician.
And I suppose that’s the central point of the tweet even if the lady did go about it in a vitriolic way. Tho if you’re country is being brutalized by America, I suppose the vitriol is understandable but I don’t know who this person is she could be American for all I know
No I agree, socdems do not get it, but they aren't outright allergic to discussions about class. Progressives think only to fill a status quo that allows access to heaven and I hate that from the deepest recesses of my heart.
Yeah for sure. they’re not but there’s a limit at what point they’re willing to be on our side in regards to class politics. The Nordic nations certainly haven’t led to communism/socialism
They seem like a breath of fresh air to us contextually because the entire rest of the govt is filled with the worst ghouls on the planet but ultimately they’ve been know to sell us out to those ghouls eventually, they’re just not as hair trigger as normal liberals, progressive or otherwise.
Soc Dems are slightly more sophisticated by using class analysis to capitalize on populist sentiments, that is the real distinction.
A broken clock... shit for real, never heard of this person before, now I wish I could go back to that.
I always find these discussions weird because a lot of American left-wing ideology is being taught by fairly recent immigrants and their children like professor Wolf for example. One of the unique qualities with the American left wing is that I don't think it ever really did develop its own national identity or methodology. The closest thing I think the American left has to that is borrowed from the black nationalist movements, but those movements were always sort of their own thing.
